McLaren with Honda engines in 2014

[ESPImperium]

We all know that in F1 there is no smoke without a fire somewhere.

Usually its Dismissial, that leads to denial, then strong denial, then ok we have talked, then it becomes we are open to all is posible, the we are happy with status quo, the heres a deal you never thought that would happen.

Lets face it, it will be happening. And i doubt that McLaren will see their Merceded deal out, i can see them with a rather heavy and underpowered RA808E powerplant for 2013 and a good Honda powerplant for 2014.

I think it will happen, they are at the dismissial/denial stage at present.

[beelsebob]

We all know that in F1 there is no smoke without a fire somewhere.

Usually its Dismissial, that leads to denial, then strong denial, then ok we have talked, then it becomes we are open to all is posible, the we are happy with status quo, the heres a deal you never thought that would happen.

Lets face it, it will be happening. And i doubt that McLaren will see their Merceded deal out, i can see them with a rather heavy and underpowered RA808E powerplant for 2013 and a good Honda powerplant for 2014.

I think it will happen, they are at the dismissial/denial stage at present.

Why would they use honda in 2013? Their Merc deal only expires in 2015.

[ESPImperium]

We all know that in F1 there is no smoke without a fire somewhere.

Usually its Dismissial, that leads to denial, then strong denial, then ok we have talked, then it becomes we are open to all is posible, the we are happy with status quo, the heres a deal you never thought that would happen.

Lets face it, it will be happening. And i doubt that McLaren will see their Merceded deal out, i can see them with a rather heavy and underpowered RA808E powerplant for 2013 and a good Honda powerplant for 2014.

I think it will happen, they are at the dismissial/denial stage at present.

Why would they use honda in 2013? Their Merc deal only expires in 2015.

Better to embed the engineers into the team for a year.

[scuderiafan]

My thought was always that McLaren wanted to become a complete manufacturer and race with their own McLaren engines. Is that possible?

[feynman]

If they had a spare €100-150million per year, McLaren could have their own F1 engine. Maybe if they found a couple of customers, and didn't have to pay Merc in 2014, it would drop to say €80 or 100million net.

So it is in theory it is possible ... but doesn't look very likely. Need to sell a whole bunch more MP4-12C to make those kinda numbers work out.

[ESPImperium]

Also sinking $800m on the MPC and MP4-12C project is their priority. Getting that and the £500,000 to £650,000 supercar up and running next is the priority as well as the 12Cs GT3 project as well. Then after that the £35,000 to £45,000 sports car project is next after that.

McLaren need a engine partner till 2018 at the earliest and most probably to at the earliest 2025 for there to be enough cashflow coming into the company for it to justify a fit and propper F1 engine, and by then the V6 life cycle will have more or less then been completed and will probably be on to small bore I4s or even I3s.

[bill shoe]

And i doubt that McLaren will see their Merceded deal out, i can see them with a rather heavy and underpowered RA808E powerplant for 2013...

Agree with your analysis. On a technical level you say the Honda V8 is heavy. Is it really over the minimum weight limit? I thought all 2.4L-era engines had to be made extra beefy to get up to the minimum engine weight.

[kalinka]

True. Just read that pdf about BMW F1 engine development.
http://f1tcdn.net/files/2011/bmw-f1-engines-200x.pdf
They said that without weight limit they could build a V8 that weighs just 69kg, and with a much lower center of gravity. Minimum weight rule is back from 2006, the last Honda engine is produced well after that.
Also engine homologation applies from 2009, so other engines couldn't go ahead in terms of horse power. Exhaust development also should esentially begin from almost scratch because of EBD ban, and I'm sure Honda could catch up if McL want to use their engine before the V6T.
But IMHO they will continue with Merc until that.

[PlatinumZealot]

My thought was always that McLaren wanted to become a complete manufacturer and race with their own McLaren engines. Is that possible?

That would be one of the worst engines on the grid if they did that.
Developing engines takes decades of experience and data to fall back onto. It is almost impossible to build such a complex engine in one or two years and have it competitive. Best to leave that to the Pro's; BMW, Honda, Renault, Merc, Cosworth, VW etc who have the resources and capital in place.

[feynman]

That's just the same problem restated another way.

You can buy the experience, the infrastructure, the test and development, and all the blown up and destroyed engine parts and prototypes.
I'm sure their new friends at Ricardo would be more than amenable to help get a first sketch up and running.

http://www.ricardo.com/en-GB/Our-Market ... e-Studies/

None of that is a technically insurmountable problem, and you'd be a little unlucky to not have a nice little V6 turbo runner at the end of it .... the problem remains the eye-watering bill that would arrive 30days later.

Honda, Renault, FIAT and Daimler AG can afford that bill from marketing budget, McLaren probably can't.

[majicmeow]

To me, Neales denial sounds a lot like John Howett in late 2009... He had publicly said MANY times that Toyota-F1 had signed the concord agreement and that they were commited to FOTA and the sport for 2010 and beyond. What happened then? Oh yea, they backed out of the sport 3 days after Abu Dhabi...

When someone is that publicly adamant that things wont change, its probably the most likely thing to happen, IMHO...

I personally would LOVE to see the Mclaren-Honda name back in the game, though at the same time, I wouldn't mind seeing Mclaren becoming a full on constructors team either and feild their own engine (perhaps an adaptaion of the MP4-12C's?)

[FW17]

Maybe the later MP4-12c can be renamed MP4-12c-NSX

[Raptor22]

I can't see why McLaren needs "decades of engine experience " to build their own engine.

they supply the ECU for all the F1 engines.
they developed Ford's HBD7 3.5 V8 into a race winner in 1993 when Benetton had the factory engine. they did this using TAG ECU technology and various mechanical changes.

They would have taken a Lambourghini V12 for 194 but Ron instead decided that he did not want to pay for engines 2 yrs running and opted for Free Peugoet engines. Peugeot did nto accpet any design or engineering input from McLaren and teh relationship dissolved by the end of 1994.
McLaren then partnered up with Mercedes Benz Ilmor and life started eing more rosy because they had more input into the design and tuning of their engines.

Point is, its a matter of money for McLaren to build their own F1 engines, not expertise or capability because they certainyhave that in Woking. What they decide to spend their money on will determined by the success of their sports cars sales.
If Honda engines come free, they wil opt for them.
Maye I recall this incorrectly but I believe McLaren start paying for their Mercedes engines after 2013 season which is likely why they would prefer to look elsewhere for free engines.
Honda would be an idea partner

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Disagree 100 percent raptor.

Building an engine is different to building a car, which is why over 40 years McLaren haven't made their own. Fact is, knowhow of building a car, and it's aero components is a far removed from an engine and it's components as you can imagine.
Dusting off old engines and making the look good doesn't mean they have capacity to build a good engine at all.

Then you get to the murkier side. What happens to their car operations when the team diverts resources to building it's own engine? There is good reason why McLaren has relied on manufacturers for engines. And those reasons are still valid and will still be valid come 2015.

[Giblet]

You can just hire or buy decades of engine building experience.

Look at the factory they have built for their road cars. They don't screw around when they decide to do something. If they decided to make their own engines in 2014, they already have an initial design team in place and are likely preparing tooling.

If they were to build their own F1 engines for 2 years from now, the ramp up should have already started.

Another scenario is that they are designing their own engine and paying Honda or someone to build it, but brand it Mclaren. Just like their road car and Ricardo.