Is motor racing, by definition, a sport...

[Earnard Beccelstone]

I've competed in a few sports where men and women compete equally, namely archery and firearm target shooting and sailing.

The girls into target shooting were seriously into it. There is a reasonably large degree of socialisation to get over (at least in Australia), so the few that did compete were very determined.

I competed in sailing for a good five years and the best crew I ever worked with was a mixed-sex crew. There was little or no differentiation between roles, even on physical jobs like winch work.

I also used to positively FEAR playing water polo against mixed sex teams. The girls were positively vicious, with sharpened toe/finger-nails and fewer reservations than the men about going for the sensitive spots, even through two or three layers of swimmers.

[bhall]

Archery is not a sport. I've said as much earlier, and even Wikipedia calls it an art. If archery is not a sport, there's no way any firearm competition is a sport. Any competition of hand-eye coordination is primarily a competition of brainpower, as that's where those skills primarily reside.

A biathlon is half sport. But, even there, men and women don't compete against one another.

Sailing, too, is not a sport. There's no reason why, given a comparable boat, an all-female crew couldn't compete in a regatta on equal terms against an all-male crew. In that regard, it's just like motor racing in that physical prowess is not a differentiating factor, despite it clearly being an element to the competition.


(Is Dennis Connor - left - an athlete?)

And water polo is just cruel to horses.

Seriously, everyone can think of instances where men and women compete against each other in sports/games that are ordinarily reserved solely for men or for women. However, at their highest level - like the Olympics - those sports are not mixed-sex.

I very much think that it's a opposition of actual ability, of the 2 competitors would you have very identical abilities, the stronger one would almost always overcome. I think Mr. Schumacher is a excellent example.

Fitness isn't necessarily synonymous with strength.

[Giblet]

Sport - A physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.

So Auto Racing, badminton, archery, darts, are all sports. As little exertion as is needed, you need to physically make the thing happen, even if it is not hard to do.

Then there are games. Games require no physical effort. I can not get someone to shoot my arrows, throw my darts, or bowl my ball and expect to be part of a competition.

If I am Steven Hawking though, and enter a chess tournament, chess being a game someone else can move the pieces for me and it will still be my game.

If you have your own definition of sport I can see how you could consider auto racing to not be a sport.

[bhall]

I'd actually say that badminton is a highly physical activity. (Watching it is one of my favorite parts of the Olympics.)

At any rate, my definition of a sport is identical to yours. However, as much as there is an element of physicality to being a race driver, one that's not at all unimportant, auto racing itself is not something I would call a primarily physical activity. It's a mechanical activity, one that's governed by a driver's hand-eye/ass-feet coordination. And the ruling faculty for both is the brain.

I don't laud a writer for pressing the keys on a keyboard; I do so because of the results.

[Richard]

bhallg2k - you seem to define sport as track, field, swimming & ball games. Anything else is not a sport?

[bhall]

Like most, I define a sport as any competition which is primarily a contest of physical prowess. There's no doubt that motor racing is physical in nature, but if it was primarily physical, women would have no place in racing due to the reasons I've stated earlier.

I think once one concludes that physical prowess is not generally the differentiating factor between success and failure in motor racing, as it tends to be in sports, one must then conclude that motor racing is not a sport.

This is in no way me knocking motor racing as a viable...well, anything, really (other than a sport). I've just seen this debate take place many, many times in the past with neither side coming up with any convincing arguments rooted in logic or reason rather than opinion.

Until now, I've actually always stood on the side that loudly proclaimed it a sport. But, when insomnia put this train of thought in my (weird) brain, I couldn't deny it, and I changed my view.

[Earnard Beccelstone]

Archery is not a sport. [SNIP] If archery is not a sport, there's no way any firearm competition is a sport. [SNIP]

Sailing, too, is not a sport. There's no reason why, given a comparable boat, an all-female crew couldn't compete in a regatta on equal terms against an all-male crew. In that regard, it's just like motor racing in that physical prowess is not a differentiating factor, despite it clearly being an element to the competition.

If the IOC think that archery, trap shooting and sailing qualify as sports for the upcoming 2012 London games, I feel pretty safe in calling them sports. If you don't think that physical prowess has something to do with archery or target shooting, I'd encourage you to try them competitively

What about some water sports: Diving and synchronised swimming would both offer even competition regardless of sex.

Another one that comes to mind is fencing. While its not a mixed-gender sport in the Olympics, there are plenty of mixed-gender fencing tournaments out there. I've even seen mixed-gender Kendo while living in Japan.

Driving is a MOTORsport. That preface term is important in separating it from other categories of sport.

[bhall]

Oh, don't get me started on "sports" whose outcomes are determined by judges. Those are pageants.

And are you sure you want to go with the IOC on this? They don't recognize auto racing as a sport.

(Which is odd, considering they do recognize motorcycle racing and powerboating as sports. Of course, they also recognize chess and - dig this - lifesaving as "sports." So, I think it's probably best that we avoid using that schizophrenic lot as an arbiter in this discussion.)

[Earnard Beccelstone]

What a condescending attitude.

Parts of my extended family have been involved in competitive gymnastics for the better part of three decades, in competition, coaching and judging.

If gymnastics isn't a sport, I don't know what is.

What of boxing, wrestling and the various forms of combat sports that are judged?

[bhall]

I don't mean to come off as condescending. My apologies. I sometimes forget that my sarcastic sense of humor often loses its lighthearted intention when no one can see me smiling.

And that my opinion about what constitutes a sport is different than others is in no way an attempt to belittle those competitions or those who view them that way. More than anything, I'm looking for consistency in how we apply certain terms so that they can be seen in the proper context.

Plus, I've been insanely bored all week.

I don't view judged competitions as a sport because, no matter what criteria is being judged, the results always hinge on human interpretation, and even experts make mistakes. The result of a sport is quantitative rather than qualitative so as to remove all doubt.

This is actually the case in amateur boxing and wrestling because those judges don't award points for form. Boxing judges count punches that reach their targets cleanly, and wrestling judges count takedowns, pins and all of the other ways to score points in whatever discipline being contested. In both cases the contestant with the greater sum of points is declared the winner no matter how he/she looked doing it.

Whenever the prescribed number of rounds in pro boxing or other combat sports fail to produce a quantitative winner, those contests are judged out of necessity more than anything else. To do otherwise would either stop those bouts and yield many, many draws or it would force the competitors to take on the enormous risk of serious injury, or even death, while they "fought 'til the end." Thankfully, the days of 100-round boxing matches are over. (And I actually wouldn't mind if all non-KO and non-TKO bouts were ruled a draw.)

[Lurk]

This is actually the case in amateur boxing and wrestling because those judges don't award points for form. Boxing judges count punches that reach their targets cleanly, and wrestling judges count takedowns, pins and all of the other ways to score points in whatever discipline being contested.

How about Judo then?

[bhall]

I don't know a thing about judo. I do, however, know that we've strayed from the subject. My comments about judged competitions not being sports were, more than anything, just lighthearted little jabs at something I don't particularly like. Gymnastics, judo, diving, etc., are all primarily physical activities, thus they're sports.

But, none of that changes the fact that motor racing is not.

[Mr Alcatraz]

Ball girls please report!

[bhall]

That's usually the first thing I say when I wake up in the morning.

[Lurk]

I don't know a thing about judo. I do, however, know that we've strayed from the subject. My comments about judged competitions not being sports were, more than anything, just lighthearted little jabs at something I don't particularly like. Gymnastics, judo, diving, etc., are all primarily physical activities, thus they're sports.

But, none of that changes the fact that motor racing is not.

Concerning judo, judge also have to evaluate technic effectiveness - result, speed & 'involvment' to keep it simple. But let's back to the subject then.


IMHO, you have your very own definition of what a sport competition is: "contest of physical prowess".
But if you look where it comes from...

"Sport" comes from the Old French "desport" meaning "leisure"

In fact the exact definition is "physical or mental pleasure". And when the word was included in english language, it became "sport" and the mental part was kicked out and are now called "game" (chess, etc).

The modern admitted definition of sport is activity governed by rules which implies
physical qualities such as: strength, stamina, coordination, suppleness, dexterity.
If we follow this definition, motor racing is clearly a sport as you need at least stamina, coordination and dexterity.

As far as I am concerned, I must say that I am not agree with that definition because it implies that "electronic sport" are true sports. e.g. Starcraft needs a lot of coordination and dexterity... (miss-clic )

As you, I think that sport must be "physical". By doing it, you must get or maintain a good physical condition, which is obviously not the cause with video game... Otherwise we would know it!
On the contrary of you, I don't think that having the best build (in strength or stamina) is the purpose of sport. It could be. Like in weight lifting or marathon or let's be extreme, iron man... But it is not a mandatory goal.

This is why I think motor sports are sports: you cannot do it in a medium / high level without a good physical condition. You bring the Tony Stewart example: maybe you don't think so but he has a good physical condition, even if he has obviously some fat. He's not as fit as Schumacher for example but I think that he is way capable of running 20km without any difficulty and a few people on earth are physically capable of running 500 or 600 miles a day, 36 times per annum.

And it is also why I think that it is not a problem that men and women can compete again each other on equal terms - which also implied when gender specific physical differences does not provide a clear advantage - on an activity considered as a sport.