New Indycar for 2012

[wesley123]

There is a lot of difference between ballasting a car that is below weight or ballasting a car just as a quick fix for it's flaws.

And apart from that, 26lbs is a lot of ballast to only place in the nose, I honestly doubt an F1 team or any other team would place that much ballast in their nose.

[Jersey Tom]

Ballast goes wherever it needs to. 26 lb isn't unreasonable. There arecars with HUNDREDS of pounds of ballast in them. A 26 pund slug isn't much by comparison.

My point is, it's BS to call the car --- if you aren't allowed to ballast and set it up properly. Take a RB F1 car and it would be crap with the wrong ballast.

[ESPImperium]

Ballast more than not has more of an effect over car dynamics than downforce levels. However, the correct ammount of ballast in the right areas of the car with the right mechanichal and aero setup is what makes the car unbeatable.

Ballast is a massive tuning tool, but it isnt the only one, it is one of the big ones yes, but it has to be used in the right way in conjunction with other big tools to get the set up correct for one driver.

26lbs is a heck of alot of ballast, however when you think that some F1 cars have had up to 25 kilos in the front, the Toyotas did, just to get the weight over the front wheels and get the ballance they needed.

Some LMP cars have to half their un-ballased weight in ballast arround the car in extreme cases.

[cossie]

Jersy i have no doubt you are correct that chassis in the past have used ballest, my point is this car is a cluster from the word go, to heavy in the back adding mosre weight in the front, have to redesign the geomety of the supension, ect ect. no they say that Judds engine is 40lbs lighter than Chevy's and Honda, however despite building a better mouse trap they are going to penalize Judd and add 40 lbs of more ballest. i really wish Swift and your friend would have gotten the contract because i believe they would have gotten it right. this current and past IRS chassis by Dullarra have been one big FUBAR

[wesley123]

Sure teams do that to set up their cars.

But i nthis case it is different. The car was design around an 48-52 weight distribution but due to flaws in their design and too heavy parts this is closer to 42-58. They arent using the ballast to set up the car, no they are using this ballast to fix the flawed weight distribution.

[cossie]

they have the COG so far off i really doubt it's even fixable

[wesley123]

I am sure it is fixable but it is ridiculous the amount they are off to what they wanted to achieve.

It almost feel like they berely done anything at all and let the teams and the manufacturers of the parts fix the problem. It is easy to say that the gearbox is too heavy since they didnt make it and no one knows the weight they expected it to be. so saying that the other manufacturers make things too heavy is easy to say.

The teams are at a huge risk, not only cost wise but also safety wise. The car is already overweight to what the car was expected to be and designed for, the 26lbs makes it even worse.

[hardingfv32]

J no they say that Judds engine is 40lbs lighter than Chevy's and Honda, however despite building a better mouse trap they are going to penalize Judd and add 40 lbs of more ballest.

1) I would say the engine suppliers are depending on the sanction body to keep the engines equal in as many respects as possible. If I was an engine supplier it would have been my assumption from the beginning that this was going to be the case. The car owners don't want to be chasing the a new hot engine package each season.

2) This is a spec series, why does it matter how the cars handle? Everyone is in the same boat. Poor handling, drive the car slower. Let the teams and drivers work with what they are given.

Brian

[wesley123]

J no they say that Judds engine is 40lbs lighter than Chevy's and Honda, however despite building a better mouse trap they are going to penalize Judd and add 40 lbs of more ballest.

1) I would say the engine suppliers are depending on the sanction body to keep the engines equal in as many respects as possible. If I was an engine supplier it would have been my assumption from the beginning that this was going to be the case. The car owners don't want to be chasing the a new hot engine package each season.

The Judd is probably down on power compared to the other two, how is that fair? I think the engines should be 'corrected' in a certain way that one engine can be best on ovals, another on high hp road courses and the other on small road courses. What is even the point in making your own engine if it cannot be best in any way?

Apart from that, if the Honda engine was that much lighter I doubt they would have done anything, IRL is all Dallara and Honda so these 2 'should' win.

2) This is a spec series, why does it matter how the cars handle? Everyone is in the same boat. Poor handling, drive the car slower. Let the teams and drivers work with what they are given.

Brian

There is a lot of difference between giving them a car as promised or saying this; 'look guys we designed a car weighing 1000lbs and with a weight distribution of 48:52' And when the car is there it's weight is closer to 1200lbs with a weight distribution of 42:58. Guess where the problem is? The teams arent making a problem about how the car handles, no they are making a problem of them getting something extremely different of what was promised. And now because Dallara ----ed up these teams have to pay for it.

[hardingfv32]

1) If the engine manufactures assume they are not going to be able to dominate (NASCAR model), then they must be happy with the general marketing exposer (OEM names) or think that they can make a profit selling engines (Judd).

2) The teams are getting what they paid for. If they wanted better cars they would have established an open chassis rule.

Again what is the difference if the car is 1200 lb.? Are the teams having to buy new haulers to accommodate the heavy cars?

So the weight distribution is off and the cars slower, what does it matter to the "show"?

Brian

[wesley123]

2) The teams are getting what they paid for. If they wanted better cars they would have established an open chassis rule.

So you order an blue shirt in the size XL but a pink shirt in S gets delivered, do you keep it that way because that is what you have paid for? No you do not. The teams were promised a 1000lbs car with a weight distribution of 48:52 and what they get is an car that is around 200lbs overweight, has a distribution of 42:58 and handles like crap. They are not getting what they have paid for

Again what is the difference if the car is 1200 lb.? Are the teams having to buy new haulers to accommodate the heavy cars?

The car is deisgned around 1000lbs as is everything else, you are putting in a 200lbs extra load(even more probably to make the car at least drivable), so that puts extra stress on the whole suspension. As well as being the whole idea of making a light car with less power and being quicker than the previous dallara thrown in the trash.

So the weight distribution is off and the cars slower, what does it matter to the "show"?

Brian

This car is also meant safer, which isnt the case since it is pretty much undrivable on ovals due to its weight distribution. Not even talking about the 200+lbs that is extra thrown into a wall in a crash with a car that is designed to weight 1000lbs. Apart from that, the car is meant to be faster.

And then I have not even talked about how much a 6% more rearward weight distribution does to the handling of a car that is supposed to drive around oval at 220+mph

[hardingfv32]

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This car is also meant safer, which isnt the case since it is pretty much undrivable on ovals due to its weight distribution.
And then I have not even talked about how much a 6% more rearward weight distribution does to the handling of a car that is supposed to drive around oval at 220+mph

If you want to be safe drive the car slower. Nothing wrong with a spec car that is slow and difficult to drive. So the cars are 20-30 mph slower at Indy. Does it really matter?

When I said they are getting what they paid for, I should have said they are getting a common outcome when you lock yourself into a single source contract. It did not have to be the case, but it is all to common in large projects.

Brian

[wesley123]

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This car is also meant safer, which isnt the case since it is pretty much undrivable on ovals due to its weight distribution.
And then I have not even talked about how much a 6% more rearward weight distribution does to the handling of a car that is supposed to drive around oval at 220+mph

If you want to be safe drive the car slower. Nothing wrong with a spec car that is slow and difficult to drive. So the cars are 20-30 mph slower at Indy. Does it really matter?

No indeed nothing is wrong with that. But the problem is that on entry it is oversteering and on corner exit it wants to throw you in the wall. These cars are 200lbs heavier than it was designed to be, thus it is also 200lbs heavier than the crash tested cars. I dont have any problems with a difficult to drive car but this car is lethal.

I am always the guy saying that it is safe enough etc. but now I am the one saying the drivers are at huge danger and at least one wil get seriously hurt in one of these cars.

When I said they are getting what they paid for, I should have said they are getting a common outcome when you lock yourself into a single source contract. It did not have to be the case, but it is all to common in large projects.

True but Dallara is now letting the teams pay for their mistakes and let others fix it. The gearbox maker(Ricardo iic) is forced by Dallara to go and take as much weight out as possible. Same as for other suspension parts. Problem is, no way these 200lbs comes from all these pieces not engineered by Dallara, and sure first build are always overweight, but 200Lbs is too much, way too much.

[scuderiafan]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96837

"We're starting to fix the imbalances and stuff, but it is important that the series allows the latitude to adjust the car to different driving styles. It's one thing saying that everybody has got to drive the same stuff, but that's going to suit certain drivers and really hurt other drivers." - Dario Franchitti

[strad]

They arent using the ballast to set up the car, no they are using this ballast to fix the flawed weight distribution.

=D>