Dan Wheldon Indycar accident - retrospective discussion

[Ray]

Excuse me but it is a fact. For some weird reason every American sport or sportbroadcast is a show and more people get hurt than in Europe with the same sport.

American's are more violent, and that's a fact. Just watch the Documentary 'Bowling for Columbine' and you'll notice why.

Just mentioning, because it isn't applicable for you doesnt mean it isnt the case for all those other Americans.

You do know what Bowling for Columbine is about and who wrote/directed it don't you? It has nothing to do with sports violence and is in no stretch a documentary. To suggest either one is lunacy. Unless you have hard, factual data on sports injuries in America versus the world your declaration is opinion. The burden of proof is on the accuser.

[bhall]

Saying Americans are more violent is just as ignorant as someone responding with, "Well, it's been far longer than 70 years since our leaders committed genocide, and we've just got to get that impulse out of our systems somehow." Foolish.

It's also foolish to base any claims on a documentary by Michael Moore. I agree with nearly every word that man says because I'm just as liberal, but even I know that his movies are more propaganda than they are actual documentaries. He paints with the same kind of broad, careless brushstrokes that can be found all over this thread.

If you don't like IndyCar racing or think that its organizers are criminals, fine. But, please don't confuse your opinions with facts.

If you think that Americans are more violent, that's fine, too. But, again, please don't confuse your opinion for fact. (We are a nation of over 300 million people. We don't have a consensus view on anything.)

We all have different ways of seeing the world, and we all have different interpretations for why we see what we see. We may not always like what others see or what others do, but in a world that claims to value freedom, there's simply nothing we can do about it but stand on a soapbox (and look dumb).

"Live and let die."

[Steven]

Guys, this thread is about Dan Wheldon's incident and his subsequent death.

Any idiotic claims that some nation's people are more violent than others really is crap and is not worthy of a post around here. Some people are more violent than others, and a lot of 'remote' fans do like crashes, whatever the outcome, but it's too much to generalise like that.

I hope we can now put this to a rest and either close this thread or talk about the actual topic. Thank you.

[strad]

I can only wholeheartedly concur with the last couple of post. =D>

[cossie]

on the original subject, the pack racing, wheel to wheel racing on high banked ovals and an unsafe chassis were the factors in this, the league for years dodged the bulletts in spades, up to las Vegas, even Robin Miller says the report was BS, any time you have the great brain barnhart(tgbb) opening his mouth you know it's pure BS, it was 90% the chassis

[WhiteBlue]

the pack racing, wheel to wheel racing on high banked ovals and an unsafe chassis were the factors in this, the league for years dodged the bulletts in spades, up to las Vegas, even Robin Miller says the report was BS

I'm glad that someone speaks about the thread issue and I hope that we can somehow come to some common point of view what reasonable consequences should be.

I do not buy the theory that the combination of the track and the setup of the cars by some mystery deleted the usual racing grooves. That sounds like a counter argument to the main criticism that was already levelled at the race organizers before the race. The short oval was very crowded and the "Challenge" would lead to a fast driver having to do many passes.

We know many facts that are confirmed by the report. The track was so crowded in front of Wheldon's car that he could not find a way through the wreckage without his wheels touching car bodies or wheels of other cars. He got off the throttle twice and braked but there simply was no escape path for him. I do not think that he did anything wrong. As a result of having nowhere to go his car got airborne by contact with other cars.

We should accept that every open wheel car can become airborne in contact with other race cars and that airborne cars can take any attitude in flight including upside down or sideways. It is just a result of coincidental forces how they eventually impact with the wall, the fence or other cars.

This leads me to five questions:

1. Can something be done within reason to reduce the crowding and give breaking drivers who are not directly involved in an accident more escape space?

2. Can the take off effect of the chassis be fundamentally reduced when there are forces applied by the open wheels.

3. Can the design of the wall and fences be improved in order to reduce the forces applied to cars that impact on them?

4. Can the construction of the cars be improved so that the primary head protection (roll hoop) would not fail in a similar accident.

5. Is it necessary to drop the speed or reduce the banking to avoid similar accidents?

I suggest that we get some opinions to those questions.

[cossie]

The old CART and Champcar caars did not have these problems , they did not take flight, they returned to the ground quickly and wheels down if they made contact , they ran smaller wings on super speed ways, with the Hanford device, they were running 30 cars or so and the BHP was a 1000, so why did the ICS indy league get things so fricking wrong,

[WhiteBlue]

The old CART and Champcar caars did not have these problems , they did not take flight, they returned to the ground quickly and wheels down if they made contact , they ran smaller wings on super speed ways.

I can't say if that is true because I'm not familiar with the design differences. Did those cars have tunnels as primary devices for downforce? And are current cars relying more on wings? Can you explain why the old cars apparently generated less lift?

[cossie]

note the size differance of the front wings of the top 3 CART reynard and lola chassis, to the bottom of the dallarra and the much bigger front wing, and the long pointed nose, Dallara tried to also put a wiker bill down the center of the front of the car to keep it from taking off, and that didn't work

[CMSMJ1]

I'd not yet read this thread all the way through and so having a bit of time I had a look and read the report too.

The thing that sticks out* is that the posts were on the trackside of the fencing? Why is that? It does not make sense at all to me?

*no pun intended.


I do appreciate the US vs bavaria comedy.. violence vs peacenik.

Oh to be English eh?

None of us have it right..none of us ever will.

[hardingfv32]

The old CART and Champcar caars did not have these problems , they did not take flight, they returned to the ground quickly and wheels down if they made contact , they ran smaller wings on super speed ways, with the Hanford device, they were running 30 cars or so and the BHP was a 1000, so why did the ICS indy league get things so fricking wrong,

Can you substantiated your statement? Indy car have been have always flown very well going back to the 40's and 50's. Nothing was any better with CART or Champcars.

Brian

[hardingfv32]

The thing that sticks out* is that the posts were on the trackside of the fencing? Why is that? It does not make sense at all to me?

It could be because of the way the fence needs to be assembled. There are large cables strung horizontally around the fence, say 2' apart. I would say you would want the fencing attached to the outside of the cables (spectator) to prevent the fencing from gathering when a car hits. The car can slide along the cables instead if digging into the fence.

It reel does not matter, as the fencing has a lot of give and a car is going to get to a post if your luck has run out no matter where the posts are positioned. This fencing is usually a form of chain link I believe.

You really can not made the fence much denser, as this will start to infringe on the spectators view.

With the economy and attendance levels at most track, chances are good they will not be willing to make many changes to the fencing system that works just fine for NASCAR.

Brian

[WhiteBlue]

The thing that sticks out* is that the posts were on the trackside of the fencing? Why is that? It does not make sense at all to me?

The report describes how the car arrived at the fence in an attitude which made the fence posts rip the roll hoop from the tub. When that protection was gone a fence post collided with the driver's helmeted head and caused a lethal impact trauma.

To me this issue seems to be a main point for potential improvements of the system. If you can stop the succession of fence poles that the car is dragged along to interlock with the upper surface of the car you will have less damage. You need to modify the fence in such a way that the car travels along without hitting the fence poles. Putting the poles on the inside would help. But I think you would probably also need a composite fence. I would test a system of thick (say 1 ") thick polycarbonate layer on the outside of the steel mesh. They have something similar in hockey to stop the puck. In order to stop the cars you have to reinforce it with the steel mesh.

That would address one of the many issues. Personally I think you also have to address the "crowding" and have to take a look at speeds and banking.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRcMeRtW ... re=related[/youtube]

This video shows the old Indy cars without diffusor, but with tunnels having a substantial role in downforce generation. I can very well imagine that tunnels will have the centre of downforce more forward and can reduce the tendency to take off.

[hardingfv32]

1) .75 mile of 1" thick polycarbonate on a 14" high fence would run in the area of $800K just for materials.

A) How long is it going to last in direct sunlight both in strength and transparency? Are you going to be able to see through it at oblique angles? I would say this viewing at oblique angles is going to be a problem with most materials.

2) The "crowding " issue is there by design to satisfy the average motor racing enthusiasts who develops most of their preferences thru NASCAR and to a lessor extent Sprints & Midgets. That is a feature that is going to be hard to remove.

Brian

[WhiteBlue]

1) .75 mile of 1" thick polycarbonate on a 14" high fence would run in the area of $800K just for materials.

A) How long is it going to last in direct sunlight both in strength and transparency? Are you going to be able to see through it at oblique angles? I would say this viewing at oblique angles is going to be a problem with most materials.

I think the price is not an issue compared to the price of a dead driver. The polycarbonate layer does not need to cover the whole hight. It would be ok to cover the first 7" and make some trials.

Sunlight isn't a big issue. You have automotive polycarbonate glasing that will not yellow much over the years. And it would not be a big deal to exchange the stuff every third year to keep it at maximum strength.