Dan Wheldon Indycar accident - retrospective discussion

[hardingfv32]

B&W film is a tradition. So are vinyl records. Persimmon golf clubs too. But anything that presumes upon itself the crown of "pinnacle" should keep up with the times. It past time to move on.

Most of the thinks you reference represent an improvement in performance. The golf clubs are an improvement under a set of very strict, tradition bound, golfing rules. So here we have a very basic and strong tradition that for open wheels. There is only a perceived need to improve safety performance by some. All the other performance perimeters are satisfactory. So it is going to be a hard sell to eliminate open wheels.

Again, you are not going to see anyone in US oval open wheel racing accept this change in tradition.

Brian

[gcdugas]

B&W film is a tradition. So are vinyl records. Persimmon golf clubs too. But anything that presumes upon itself the crown of "pinnacle" should keep up with the times. It past time to move on.

Most of the thinks you reference represent an improvement in performance. The golf clubs are an improvement under a set of very strict, tradition bound, golfing rules. So here we have a very basic and strong tradition that for open wheels. There is only a perceived need to improve safety performance by some. All the other performance perimeters are satisfactory. So it is going to be a hard sell to illuminate open wheels.

Again, you are not going to see anyone in US oval open wheel racing accept this change in tradition.

Brian

Open wheels are not "satisfactory" in term of aero drag or safety. We have been conditioned to think they look cool or fast. The same for open cockpits. At one time airplanes had them too you might recall. The transition could be done gradually from something like this



...to a closed canopy next, then to shrouding the back side of the front wheels and finally to something similar to a LeMans car. If done over a decade the fans would embrace it. Especially if every time there was a mild performance increase. Racing could get closer, dirty air less of a problem and finally we would see more overtaking if done right.

Street cars went from this


to this



to this



There is no reason that racing cars must be stuck in this age



or even this age



Public sentiment is not that fickle. The first "metal woods" used in golf had a chink sound when compared to the persimmon clubs. Fans initially objected but soon enough they started to equate the sound with superior performance. I would say that golf is much more bound to tradition than auto racing and they have embraced the future. So should we.

Honestly... do you think open wheel race cars will be around in 40 yrs? It is time to be proactive and move towards the future rather than be stuck in the buggy whip guild.

Done right closed bodywork can be safer, faster, have more advertising space and still "look cool".

[bhall]

If open wheels don't make sense for IndyCar, then they definitely don't make sense for F1.

Let's cover 'em all!

[gcdugas]

This looks "cool" to me. Almost like a stealth fighter jet.



And then there is this



Somehow closed bodywork cars like this don't seem to be competing against the NASCAR crowd for public attention.

[hardingfv32]

Open wheels are not "satisfactory" in term of aero drag or safety.

Well, I don't think there is a need to make the oval open wheel car any more aerodynamic and thus faster. So in this regard the aero performance is satisfactory. Where the safety issue stands in subject to opinion.

While I agree the LMP1 cars are beautiful, they have absolutely no following in the USA and a limited following i the rest of the world. They only exist because of the 24 Hours of Leman. eliminate that race and they die a certain dead, much as Indycar would if the Indy 500 shut down.

Again, I will restate the importance of Midget and Sprint car racing tradition in the USA. This is a tradition where the cars are little changed in basic confirguration over the last 60 years. I am not much of a believer in traditions, but there are occasions when they are hard to fight

Brian

[gcdugas]

Open wheels are not "satisfactory" in term of aero drag or safety.

Well, I don't think there is a need to make the oval open wheel car any more aerodynamic and thus faster. So in this regard the aero performance is satisfactory. Where the safety issue stands in subject to opinion.

While I agree the LMP1 cars are beautiful, they have absolutely no following in the USA and a limited following i the rest of the world. They only exist because of the 24 Hours of Leman. eliminate that race and they die a certain dead, much as Indycar would if the Indy 500 shut down.

Again, I will restate the importance of Midget and Sprint car racing tradition in the USA. This is a tradition where the cars are little changed in basic confirguration over the last 60 years. I am not much of a believer in traditions, but there are occasions when they are hard to fight

Brian

LMP cars have no following because the races are weird and confusing. They race several classes simultaneously, race too long, and seldom have similar cars on the same lap at the end. Three strikes and your out.

Thus I maintain that it is not the cars that alienate the average viewer. If F1 cars or even Indy cars had closed bodywork, they would still attract both rookie drivers and viewers. In America the lesser ranks such as "Legends Cars", Sprint/Midget cars would still aspire to the higher ranks even if they had full bodywork, The same is true for carting around Europe and the rest of the world. Everyone aspires to be like the big boys. So the big boys can pursue design without regards fashion or tradition. There is even a "tradition of not being bound by tradition" when they raced the first mid/ear engine car, cars with wings, cars with skirts etc. Therefore I maintain that fully covered survival cell cars should be the ten year goal for series sanctioning bodies. And I maintain that the fans will follow, and increase even as the cars will be more able to pass because less "dirty air" affect upon the cars. I have no problem with 1000BHP either. A greater delta in the cornering speed from the straight speed means increased braking distances and greater opportunity for overtaking going into the corners also.

[hardingfv32]

[quote="gcdugas"]Thus I maintain that it is not the cars that alienate the average viewer. If F1 cars or even Indy cars had closed bodywork, they would still attract both rookie drivers and viewers. In America the lesser ranks such as "Legends Cars", Sprint/Midget cars would still aspire to the higher ranks even if they had full bodywork, The same is true for carting around Europe and the rest of the world. Everyone aspires to be like the big boys. So the big boys can pursue design without regards fashion or tradition. There is even a "tradition of not being bound by tradition" when they raced the first mid/rear engine car, cars with wings, cars with skirts etc.

1) I have been careful to always use the adjective "oval" when describing open wheel racing in the USA. FACT: sportscars on ovals is NOT going to attract traditional oval fans or even sportscar fans. Since racing on road courses has limited commercial potential in the USA, abandoning open wheel oval racing for road courses is of limited value for the financial well being of the series.

2) In this regard and that of "tradition of not being bound by tradition", it is safe to say the that transition to rear engine race cars at INDY 500 was bad for the long term health of USA open wheel oval racing. What is good for the INDY 500 is not good for the rest of open wheel racing. The sanction body started doing road coarse and dropping ovals, paved and dirt, to increase the fan base. History clearly demonstrates this is NOT a successful business model in the USA where oval racing dominates.

So the best way forward at this point is to take a number of steps backward and rebuild the tradition of USA oval racing..... which will never include closed wheels or cockpits. Safety is the last think on Indycar's agenda, all attention is on financial survival!

Brian

[gcdugas]

I think safety will assert itself to the fore if for no other reason than litigation. Thus financial survival will rearrange whatever priorities that presently reign.

I would like you to note that "modified cars" have full body work and race on ovals.


What is needed is the embrace of a long term vision rather than a series of band-aid reactions. We don't need side body rails around the wheels like this cobbed up solution



In context we are talking about F1 and Indycars... the big boys so to speak. Fans will embrace hi-tech futuristic looking cars similar to LMP cars. Especially so if the racing improves. More room for sponsors too! And survival cell technology is the future. Get used to it.

I maintain that in thirty years there will be no more open wheel cars. Fashion will change. It will be necessitated by safety.

[bhall]

What litigation?

[hardingfv32]

In context we are talking about F1 and Indycars... the big boys so to speak. Fans will embrace hi-tech futuristic looking cars similar to LMP cars. Especially so if the racing improves. More room for sponsors too! And survival cell technology is the future. Get used to it.

I maintain that in thirty years there will be no more open wheel cars. Fashion will change. It will be necessitated by safety.

Why is anyone going to risk a switch to LMP cars on ovals when they cannot draw a crowd at road courses? Safety is not a concern. I can not even remember the guy killed at Fontana a few years back. Weldon will be a faint memory soon after the next Indy 500. I would consider it major progress if they incorporated roll cages. Anything else is a fantasy. I have 60 years of history backing up my position that USA oval racing is very slow to change. After seeing what the Indy 500 Revolution of the 60's & 70's did to the top tier of USA oval open wheel racing, I am even more confident in my position.

Brian

[flynfrog]

I think safety will assert itself to the fore if for no other reason than litigation. Thus financial survival will rearrange whatever priorities that presently reign.

I would like you to note that "modified cars" have full body work and race on ovals.


What is needed is the embrace of a long term vision rather than a series of band-aid reactions. We don't need side body rails around the wheels like this cobbed up solution



In context we are talking about F1 and Indycars... the big boys so to speak. Fans will embrace hi-tech futuristic looking cars similar to LMP cars. Especially so if the racing improves. More room for sponsors too! And survival cell technology is the future. Get used to it.

I maintain that in thirty years there will be no more open wheel cars. Fashion will change. It will be necessitated by safety.

the top one still has open front wheels id also be willing to bet that the rear wheel we cant see is outside of the body. I think you were looking for late models

[WhiteBlue]

The debate on closed wheels is missing the point IMO. F1 demonstrates clearly that open wheel cars can be safely raced at the highest performance level without fatalities for seventeen years.

The difference to the IRL is that F1 restricts the banking, provides more track per car to avoid crowding and spends a huge amount of money to decelerate cars when things go wrong. And those are the points IRL really needs to think about.

No short, over crowded tracks, much reduced banking and a radical upgrade to the wall and safety fence system. Those cars must hit a deceleration system that will not destroy vital driver protection systems like the roll structures regardless of the attitude the car has at impact.

[bhall]

If you eliminate banked turns and provide what you would call a sufficient run-off, you've eliminated oval tracks in IRL. That would suit me just fine, but I think a considerable portion of its audience would see it as sacrilege. And no matter what you think, WB, what fans want is important. Without fans, motor racing doesn't exist.

I also think its extremely unfair to continue to compare IRL and F1. The only thing they have in common is open wheels. Otherwise, because of the nature of the formula, F1 cars rarely race wheel-to-wheel for more than a corner or two, and when they do it's usually at a relatively low speed. That in itself accounts for a great deal of F1's safety record, and it has nothing to do with anything that anyone has done in the name of safety.

[WhiteBlue]

[quote="bhallg2k"]If you eliminate banked turns and provide what you would call a sufficient run-off, you've eliminated oval tracks in IRL. .../quote]

I'm convinced that the application of more research and resources could make the wall and catch fencing safer. It looks like very little thought has gone into that system.

[hardingfv32]

The difference to the IRL is that F1 restricts the banking, provides more track per car to avoid crowding and spends a huge amount of money to decelerate cars when things go wrong. And those are the points IRL really needs to think about.

No short, over crowded tracks, much reduced banking and a radical upgrade to the wall and safety fence system. Those cars must hit a deceleration system that will not destroy vital driver protection systems like the roll structures regardless of the attitude the car has at impact.

You have no clue what makes for good oval racing entertainment. Have ever been to an actual oval track race?

"Short" Allows for good up close spectating and a good sight lines of the whole track.

"Crowded track" Oval racing is a complete bore unless the cars are not racing nose to tail or side by side. F1 is only slightly less boring when they are in parade formation.

"Banking" can play a very big roll in the quality of oval racing by providing multi-able race lines.

Most ovals in the USA are designed for NASCAR. Any money spent to upgrade a track will be focused on NASCAR. NASCAR is the the only successful USA top tier auto racing business model at this time (NHRA excluded). The current fence systems are just fine for NASCAR. So, modifying the fence systems for open wheel cars is a dream.

Brian