New Indycar for 2012

[hardingfv32]

cossie

Why don't you demonstrate something other than the same mindless babble you are constantly making against Dallara.

Please explain exactly how Dallara adds the 200 lb. you claim on to the car without an engine or transaxle involved? They made the tub extra strong? Maybe the control arms are solid CF? Wheels and brakes are steel? So, what could they do so wrong to add 200 lb.?

Brian

[cossie]

mindless bable hardly, i've provided facts on the shortcomings of this abortion of a car, , all the defending of Dallarra, i've read is purely conjecture. i value Gordon kirby and Rubbin Miller take far more than the stuff i've read

[hardingfv32]

cossie

So, all you are doing is regurgitating Kirby or Miller? Their babble is of no value on this form, we expect see some engineering logic defending a position. Does not have to be hard evidence, just sound logic.

I doubt they can help you but, use your brain a little and answer the question:

How does Dallara add the 200 lb. you claim on to the car without an engine or transaxle involved? They made the tub extra strong? Maybe the control arms are solid steel? Wheels and brakes are steel? So, what could they do so wrong to add 200 lb.?

Brian

[wesley123]

I simply agree with Cossie. Based on the goals set and what has achieved you cannot say anyhing else than that they just screwed up big time. I mean, 200Lbs overweight is just too much. That would mean that Engine is around 30lbs overweight, gearbox is and suspension parts too. If we put all these suppliers worst scenario weights together we still dont get the 200lbs overweight. And that is the fun part, that can only come from the chassis. But where? that is something I (and cossie) would like to know too where Dallara managed to get their car at least 100lbs heavier.

200lbs is too much, no matter how you look at it, the car is around 15% overweight, it's weight distribution is 6% off, drag figures are off as well as power figures. Drag and power are mostly fixed right now but the weight distribution is fixed by a bandaid in turn making it more overweight.

And say what, the IRL themselves said those points, not Dallara then Dallara had to step up saying they were not able to reach the set goals, but no they did not. Whether or not this is Dallara's fault, it seems getting clearer by day something is wrong within that organisation.

[hardingfv32]

I simply agree with Cossie.

So then where do you think Dallara puts on 200 lb.? How do you know how much the engines or transmissions are coming in at?

Brian

[wesley123]

I simply agree with Cossie.

So then where do you think Dallara puts on 200 lb.? How do you know how much the engines or transmissions are coming in at?

Brian

Like said I do not know where it is coming from. And how I know that? Because I have read the Speed articles.

Apart from that I used it for an example, I said "And lets just take a worst case scenario of every supplier part being 30lbs overweight", I have never stated that it was actually the case.
So again;
Dallara blames the suppliers that their stuff is overweight, so for every supplier part we add 30lbs;
Suspension - 30lbs
engine - 30lbs
gearbox - 30lbs
brakes - 30lbs
That brings a total to an -in an worst case scenario- 120lbs overweight. So then we still miss 80lbs and that has to come from Dallara.

But how likely is these 30lbs worst case scenario true? So let's take 15lbs for everything which is more likely, that would make 15x4 = 60lbs overweight, that means that the car itself is 140lbs overweight.

Point is, Dallara simply screwed up and they blame the suppliers for it.

[hardingfv32]

Point is, Dallara simply screwed up and they blame the suppliers for it.

Your opinion carries no weight if you can not back it up with some kind of logic.

The engine or transmission suppliers could just as well be the issue here. What makes you think that they are limited in the amount of extra weight they have brought to the situation?

We simply do not have enough information to logically assign the majority of the blame to Dallara.

Brian

[wesley123]

Point is, Dallara simply screwed up and they blame the suppliers for it.

Your opinion carries no weight if you can not back it up with some kind of logic.

The engine or transmission suppliers could just as well be the issue here. What makes you think that they are limited in the amount of extra weight they have brought to the situation?

We simply do not have enough information to logically assign the majority of the blame to Dallara.

Brian

How much more logic do I need? Please read back the topic and my post, I have already given almost all possible arguments why Dallara c*cked up, both logical as well as opinion as well as out of information.

For this I'll take out my calculator to convert lbs to kg and back.
For the engine, lets take an 100kg weight.
100kg is 220.46226218487757lbs.
Lets state that this one is 30lbs overweight, that is around 14% that the engine would be overweight. Converted to kg the engine would weigh 113.6077711kg. And this 14% just seems to much to me, I would say these parts would be around 6kg overweight on earlier builds.

The Dallara is 200lbs overweight, if we take it to each category I named in the previous posts every part group would be 50lbs overweight, that is jsut too much, that is 22.6796185 kg for each part.

But now, lets state each part is 20% overweight, which is an huge amount. For this we take a few basic weights for every part group I named in previous post.
100kg engine -> 120kg
50kg gearbox -> 60kg
30kg suspension parts -> 36kg
15kg brakes -> 18kg

Now we convert these to lbs, the original behind the overweight, and behind that the amount it is overweight
120kg engine -> 265lbs - 220lbs -- 45lbs
60kg gearbox -> 132lbs - 110lbs -- 22lbs
36kg suspension parts -> 79lbs - 66lbs -- 13lbs
18kg brakes -> 40lbs - 33lbs -- 7lbs
In total 516lbs - 429lbs -- 87lbs
Lets say that mechanicals(thus non suppliers parts) are 70% of the car while it was designed that means we'll take(if i dont get it wrong here) 429 / 0,7 = 612lbs for the total car weight with the figures i took this is around half of the actual weight. so by that that means the suppliers parts are a total of 174lbs overweight. Thus the dallara parts are by this 36lbs overweight, which is around 16kg that the bodywork itself is overweight.

Still, 20% overweight for parts just seems too much for me, so by this we can state that the IRL set too high goals for Dallara to achieve or that Dallara made some serious mistakes in the design phase.

Also last stated doesnt seem so unlikely by what we have seen Dallara deliver in other classes, the HRT was so bad, it wasnt even f1 worthy, and if i'm correct in other series they havent been doing well either lately.

[Belatti]

That doesnt look right, right?

[Federico]

That doesnt look right, right?

It's gorgeous! I hope in 2014 f1 car will look more like this!

[Pierce89]

That doesnt look right, right?

WOW!! That looks great in all black!!

[scuderiafan]

2012 is going to be brilliant for IndyCar, but I personally can't wait until 2013 when the teams show off their own aero packages. Chevy, Lotus, Honda are making their own, as well as Dallara. I thought I read something that said Penske was making their own, but I can't find it.

[Belatti]

The rear wing is 70s BIG and those things before the rear wheels look hideous. The rumour is the car is slower than the previous "years old" dallara

[scuderiafan]

The rear wing is 70s BIG and those things before the rear wheels look hideous. The rumour is the car is slower than the previous "years old" dallara

That was what they wanted to do, slow the cars down.

[Tim.Wright]

Whatever you say about the Dallara, it will be a million times more attractive than any of the current F1 cars.

Tim