Red Bull RB8 Renault (pre-launch speculation)

[ell66]

Well why did you come onto the RB8 thread if you knew the car wasn't launched and there would be no "true technical matters" to read about? Just because you come on here for that doesn't mean other can't talk about technical aspects of what the car might possibly look like.

I understood that this was a forum for discussion about a particular car. Wild speculation is just that, speculation. Why not talk about facts that are known about the car?

Its ALL speculation at this point, but some times you can make educated guesses, or just talk about possibilities.

If you dont like it then dont open the thread until the car gets launched in month or so.

Of course I will open the thread, to see if there are technical details which I can ascertain. As regards the "speculation", have a look at the comments on the thread, and tell me how many of these are "educated" speculation. Most are disagreeing with each other and are trying to second guess the designer, basically claiming that he knows little and that some posters on this site know more than Newey.
I won't speculate, but I am sure that Adrian will be fully aware how to utilise the changed aero form the lower nose, and if he goes for one nose or the other, I would bet my bottom dollar, that there will be many claiming that he is wrong.
Just remember, it is the overall package that will work, not one specific detail.[/quote]

Some of the posts aren't quite on point, but what do you expect? no one will know anything till the car is launched, so ill say it again, if you have a problem with this then dont come in here, its the same in the other car threads and its been the same for the last couple of seasons.
And im sure newey will find some very good solutions for next year, should be intresting.

[aleks_ader]

Some of the posts aren't quite on point, but what do you expect? no one will know anything till the car is launched, so ill say it again, if you have a problem with this then dont come in here, its the same in the other car threads and its been the same for the last couple of seasons.
And im sure newey will find some very good solutions for next year, should be intresting.

el66 calm down... That is point of forum, everyone have dofferrend opinions and thank god for that how it is! It will became boring if every one think exact the same like the others...

So back on Red Bull thread... I m totaly agree with you ell66 that one part or detail could make any difference... But if the designer choose the right way and adpation all other parts around it.


For example if you have low nose is better to have u side pods... but you most have some solution how to reinforce the lack of rear downforce (front produce slighty more down.. ) And overal the whole car will have slighty less drag

And oposite with hight nose you will cut the air to preven any vortices toward back of the car... And there if you will make good diffuozor and nicly shaped sidepods gain rear downforce... And that lack of front downforce Red Bull replaced with ingenious rule "bending" flex front wing...

Everyone design most have whole pourpuse and style... That is gold rule of F1 engineering!

[Tozza Mazza]

Here are the two designs for a 2012 F1 car nose I expect to see. The top is as proposed by Scarbs in his piece and has a lower tip.

The second lowers the dash bulkheads, and can stay at a height of 550mm for 150mm in front of the front dash bulkhead.

Hopefully this will clear things up for some people.

[PlatinumZealot]

My take on it... legal?

[wesley123]

nosetip is too high i guess.

Might work though, but definetely requires an snow plough or streamlined bulge since this way it would cause too much drag is my guess

[Tozza Mazza]

My take on it... legal?

Definately legal, although as Wesley said, will cause a lot of drag, maybe something similar, albeit a little less extreme might be seen in 2012.

[Tozza Mazza]

Okay, I've relooked at the regulations, and done a couple more 2D CAD's based on them.

2011 Design:


Very simple design, using a straight line underneath to continue the slope of the underside of the survival cell, which I'm fairly certain doesn't happen, but any curvature is slight on any noses of 2011 cars, so it'll do for a demonstration. Loads of room under the nose for air to pass, I'm unsure as to what the benefits of that are though.

Scarbs Design:


Whilst not exactly Scarbs' design at all, merely the shape he used on his blog to explain the 2012 regulations, I used the same survival cell shape, with the dash bulkheads in the same position as they are in 2011, and the front bulkhead at the highest it can be in 2012. This design has the lowest tip, the smallest area under the nose, and the largest area above the nose. I do think however with some clever shaping of the underside of the nose, we could see a design using this concept in 2012.

Piola Design:


A few weeks ago Giorgio Piola released a video explaining changes for 2012. He showed a nose looking like the one above. This is the only design I have down which is actually illegal in 2012. To make it legal it would have the lowest tip, and would have a really 'obese shape', as seen below. For this reason I doubt we'll be seeing it in 2012. (It's this way, because the front of the survival cell must be 275mm tall, even if the front is moved forward).


Table top Design:


This is basically the 2011 design, moved down 75mm, with some optimization, its the design I expect to see most of in 2012, but I could well be wrong.

N Smikle Design:

With under nose optimization, raising the tip, this is the kind of design we're likely to see next year, although probably a little less 'extreme'.

[Ferraripilot]

Out of curiousity, does anyone believe that without any new 'magic bullet' from Red Bull that RB8 will even be as quick as RB7? I seriously doubt it as the design paradigm for RB7 is completely changed in losing the EBD. If RB8 is within .5 as quick as RB7 I would consider it successful. I just don't see where the additional aero is going to come from unless they have some really fancy rendition of the gurney tab/wing they have been messing with at the diffuser.

[shelly]

new sidepod shape and clever use of radiotor flow maybe?

[NonNewtonic]

I don't think Red Bull will loose that much due to the ban of EBD as it was shown in Silverstone where McLaren ws surprisely loose the most. What I think is the speed of the Red Bull come from the overall design of the car or in other words basically the whole car is generating DF due to its aero efficiency yes its true RB built their car around the EBD concept but so as the other strong teams except for Ferrari i think

[myurr]

I don't think Red Bull will loose that much due to the ban of EBD as it was shown in Silverstone where McLaren ws surprisely loose the most. What I think is the speed of the Red Bull come from the overall design of the car or in other words basically the whole car is generating DF due to its aero efficiency yes its true RB built their car around the EBD concept but so as the other strong teams except for Ferrari i think

Don't forget that in Silverstone the EBD wasn't removed from any of the cars, only hot blowing was banned whilst off throttle - plus the Mercedes teams had an additional disadvantage where the rules with which they had to qualify under were revised 20 minutes before qualifying and therefore the start of parc ferme. It's possible that Red Bulls more refined design wasn't impacted as much and that their cars had a better setup due to running that configuration in practice, whereas in 2012 the total removal of the EBD would leave Red Bull with a larger reduction in down force.

We simply don't have enough information to be able to definitively say one way or the other.

[Ferraripilot]

I don't think Red Bull will loose that much due to the ban of EBD as it was shown in Silverstone where McLaren ws surprisely loose the most. What I think is the speed of the Red Bull come from the overall design of the car or in other words basically the whole car is generating DF due to its aero efficiency yes its true RB built their car around the EBD concept but so as the other strong teams except for Ferrari i think

Don't forget that in Silverstone the EBD wasn't removed from any of the cars, only hot blowing was banned whilst off throttle - plus the Mercedes teams had an additional disadvantage where the rules with which they had to qualify under were revised 20 minutes before qualifying and therefore the start of parc ferme. It's possible that Red Bulls more refined design wasn't impacted as much and that their cars had a better setup due to running that configuration in practice, whereas in 2012 the total removal of the EBD would leave Red Bull with a larger reduction in down force.

We simply don't have enough information to be able to definitively say one way or the other.

+1 right on

And Newey has recently stated that RB8 is an evolution of RB7 which was an evolution of RB6 back to RB5. Well, RB8 is going to have to be a serious evolution unless they have some way of recouping lost rear end downforce. I'm not understanding any other way around it. RB8 will have to have a stiffer front end, not as much rake, and this in essence is an about-face to their entire design program over the past 2-3 years. This is a problem and I just don't see the dominance of the past 2 years.

Someone quote me later but I see Red Bull dicing with Mercedes with Mclaren being very strong. The new 4th place team will be Ferrari.

[ajdavison2]

Am I right in saying that the Rb5 didn't have an EBD? and that it was easily the fastest of the non-DDD cars in 2009, and the only car capable of getting within a second of brawn gp. I thought the EBD only came back in 2010 pre season testing with the redbull. If I've remembered right then it could easily be another red bull dominance.

[Holm86]

Of course the EBD was a big part of the RB7. But dont forget all the other stuff the RB7 brought to the game. To me it looked like the RB7 had the tightest coke bottle shape ive ever seen. Im quite sure it really good balance as well. From the pictures ive seen it seems that the RB7 was one of the longest wheelbases if not the longest.
Im also very sure the tricky front wing/nose design was a part of why the car was that fast.

Every thing adds up to make a quick car. It was not the EBD alone that made it faster than the rest.

[NonNewtonic]

Am I right in saying that the Rb5 didn't have an EBD? and that it was easily the fastest of the non-DDD cars in 2009, and the only car capable of getting within a second of brawn gp. I thought the EBD only came back in 2010 pre season testing with the redbull. If I've remembered right then it could easily be another red bull dominance.

Nope based on what I've seen the RB5 itself actually featured EDB but the effect was more significant after RB introduced DDD in Monarco