Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

[xpensive]

One less than flattering part with yourself JET, is your inability to foresee what your opponent's opinions really aim at.

My theory here is obviously that the short wheelbase with it's double radiator layout was only worked out somewhere else as a concept, then sent to Brackley to be completed, which makes it plausible that it turned out as fast as it did.

Another one is adding a at every comment to a post which displeases you.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

So I'm not allowed to disagree or use emoticons? Please x, let's not get personal...again.


There is always somthing "wrong" with this team according to you and mun/seg.
You forego the fact that Mercedes Stuttgart bought a team in brackley to do the designing of the car for them.

The engineers in brackley came up with the idea on every single report I have read. So can you point me to where Mercedes Stuttgart imposed this idea on the team?
It's your opinion of course. No problem there.

But people usually form opinions from facts and it is my opinion that the W02 was wholly designed and dreamt up at brackley.... Mercedes did pay 80 million for this to happen after all.

[Richard]

JET - while I disagree with mun and x's relentlessly Merc bashing, they do raise some questions.

Where is the controlling influence for Merc? Is the team allowed to get on with the job or are they always wondering when they'll be called to report to Stuttgart? We know from Honda and Toyota that corporate meddling diminishes the teams creativity. There is academic research that show innovation is stifled as soon as seemingly unrelated controlling influences appear.

An F1 team has to dance to its own tune from the colour of the overalls to the choice of tea and coffee, to hiring and firing, to the brand of laptops they use. Ferrari, McLaren, and now Newey at RB have shown this independence is a fundamental ingredient for success.

If people with clipboards start peering over their shoulders then innovation disappears and they start making strange decisions.

So Stuttgart may not have been as Machiavellian as x suggests, but they still could have had a disruptive influence by tinkering around the edges, or getting involved with managing design development.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

[...] Mercedes stipulated this was Brawns show.
Secondly We need to ask the question will a multi millionaire team boss stand for being told what to do?
I doubt that brawn would take --- like that.

Thirdly, if this is the scenario... And brawn ups sticks, where does this leave Mercedes? In a horrible quandary as their meddling from afar would stop any credible replacement.

When you investigate deeper, you begone to see the cracks(huge in my view) in the argument.


Then you look at the recent staff acquisitions. Would Bell Willis et al all stand for it?
Of course not.

[Ferraripilot]

Mercedes stipulated this was Brawns show.
Secondly We need to ask the question will a multi millionaire team boss stand for being told what to do?
I doubt that brawn would take --- like that.

Thirdly, if this is the scenario... And brawn ups sticks, where does this leave Mercedes? In a horrible quandary as their meddling from afar would stop any credible replacement.

When you investigate deeper, you begone to see the cracks(huge in my view) in the argument.


Then you look at the recent staff acquisitions. Would Bell Willis et al all stand for it?
Of course not.

+1 exactly. This is Brawn's show and Mercedes is relying on his championship reputation to pull this through. The recent influx in staff is probably not what the members of the board would have done. While I agree that an F1 team's independance is important, I don't believe any team can say they are fully independant and answer to absolutely no one except for maybe Mclaren.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

There is always a case to answer for every team.

Ferrari have to report to montezemolo, McLaren to Dennis and mansour, red bull to mateshitz.
This is no different in Mercedes case.

To confuse Zetsche wanting results and getting the cheque book out to sign Costa Bell and Willis with that of Stuttgart meddling with the w02 wheelbase is one conspiracy theory too far.

Brawn has Zetsches ear via Haug. Why else would merc ramp up its staffing levels and sign blue riband names ....

A +1 Ferraripilot

[aral]

Mercedes stipulated this was Brawns show.

Interesting that Brawn himself stated that if he did not produce results this year, then he would be shown the door. Daimler AG are in control.

[dren]

Mercedes stipulated this was Brawns show.
Secondly We need to ask the question will a multi millionaire team boss stand for being told what to do?
I doubt that brawn would take --- like that.

Thirdly, if this is the scenario... And brawn ups sticks, where does this leave Mercedes? In a horrible quandary as their meddling from afar would stop any credible replacement.

When you investigate deeper, you begone to see the cracks(huge in my view) in the argument.


Then you look at the recent staff acquisitions. Would Bell Willis et al all stand for it?
Of course not.

It is certainly plausible. Perhaps Mercedes realized their meddling was counter productive after the W02 didn't perform. Brawn probably would have then convinced them they needed the new hires, and they were hired.

[Richard]

All teams have to answer to themselves. Its about operating as single team rather than having the team and owner as separate identities. When external owners start meddling then things fall apart.

I agree that Merc now seem to be building a robust team rather than pretending the Honda rump could magic another WCC car. The question is what prevented that rather obvious move happening 2 years ago? There is plenty of evidence to make this a valid question.

The other question is whether the dual location is causing problem, ie is there tension between Stuttgart and Brackley? Does Brawn have to seek approval from Stuttgart for his management decisions and plans?

RB is an example of deference to the factory. Everything happens at Milton Keynes.

There is less tangible evidence about this with Merc, other than an odd feeling that we're never sure if the strategic direction originates with the budget holders and marketing team in Stuttgart or the factory in Brackeley. I think that feeling originates from the Merc image that this the reborn sliver arrows, it inherits the Mercedes culture, this will make Stuttgart great again, cars are launched in Stuttgart in German before English. One can't help but hear echoes of Honda and Toyota.

In contrast every other team is true to itself and answers only to itself.

[Dragonfly]

Fourth fastest, fourth fastest, fourth ...
In F1 that's not enough, neither for the brand name, unless someone is doing the money sucking exercise for as long as possible.
Only die hard fanatic would use it as his/her argument. A single one.

[FrukostScones]

All teams have to answer to themselves. Its about operating as single team rather than having the team and owner as separate identities. When external owners start meddling then things fall apart.

I agree that Merc now seem to be building a robust team rather than pretending the Honda rump could magic another WCC car. The question is what prevented that rather obvious move happening 2 years ago? There is plenty of evidence to make this a valid question.

The other question is whether the dual location is causing problem, ie is there tension between Stuttgart and Brackley? Does Brawn have to seek approval from Stuttgart for his management decisions and plans?

RB is an example of deference to the factory. Everything happens at Milton Keynes.

There is less tangible evidence about this with Merc, other than an odd feeling that we're never sure if the strategic direction originates with the budget holders and marketing team in Stuttgart or the factory in Brackeley. I think that feeling originates from the Merc image that this the reborn sliver arrows, it inherits the Mercedes culture, this will make Stuttgart great again, cars are launched in Stuttgart in German before English. One can't help but hear echoes of Honda and Toyota.

In contrast every other team is true to itself and answers only to itself.

You can't compare RB or any other team to Mercedes, RB is just a marketing company without production and a very unrelated product(it'S just an expensive hobby of Mr. Mateschitz what costs him maybe nothing or negative). Mercedes claims to be the best car manufacturer in the world and is the only left mass car company in F1.
They should have contiunued the sole role an engine supplier, because failure in F1 (with a team what represents the company as a whole) is easier than its explanation to the shareholders/stakeholders.
And you can't leave the F1 team alone, you are not Renault, you can't trust those guys in Brackley, what if they f*** up? how to explain it, so you have to control them you want to help them, and thats where the problems start... an organizational nightmare!

42 pages of speculation... what do we expect? floating(extremly undercut) U-Pods and trick radiators(layout), a wheelbase that is moderately longer, a better rear suspension, a real beam wing, and distronic for Michael?

[Coefficient]

It seems perfectly clear to me that the Mercedes Benz Company has been sold a Lemon. With the exception of BAR 006 of 2004 and BGP 001 of 2009, the team produced a succession of bad cars without fail.

The Brawn BGP001 was a great car at the beginning of 2009 but only because Ross had thrown the kitchen sink at it since he took one look at 2008s Honda and nearly fell off his chair with laughter. I mean bunny ears, give me strength!!

I remember watching the unveiling of the thing and he was trying his best to sound positive but he knew it was another dog of a car. Alas he'd arrived too late to have any input into its design.

For BGP001 Brawn was able to use the huge lead time to overcome the shortcomings of the design team at Brackley but under a normal cycle this isn't possible, hence bad cars since Merc rebranding. In fact, the BGP001 lost its way by Silverstone as the team struggled to figure out how to develop it whilst their competitors were going from strength to strength.

This is proved promptly the following year when the team slips from 1st to 4th in the constructors. Something very rare for a "top team".

Brawn has been rounding up all his old pals because he needs to. I'm sure the board were none too pleased when they realised that when it all boiled down they'd been sold nothing more than the dismal Honda team of yore. Clearly the shrewdest operater in that team was Jenson Button as he made hey whilst the sun shone and signed for Mclaren.

[Richard]

Only two teams make road cars, Ferrari & MacLaren.

Merc F1 is a vanity project for Mercedes, they bought it for marketing just like most other teams.

By the way Red Bull happens to be the 4th oldest owner on the grid. They also let the team get on with what the team needs to do. The owner doesn't keep saying how the team will be strengthened because the owners heritage means they know better than the team. You don't see Red Bull cars launched in the drinks factory and talk of how the drink technology will make a better racing car.

Of course that would be ridiculous, but that is what Merc aper to be doing. Why do Merc keep saying their experience of mass production (which is as relevant to F1 as a drinks can) will transform the team at Brackley? They didn't do that with McLaren, they handed over the cash and let McLaren and Ilmor get on with the job.

[Coefficient]

Only two teams make road cars, Ferrari & MacLaren.

Merc F1 is a vanity project for Mercedes, they bought it for marketing just like most other teams.

By the way Red Bull happens to be the 4th oldest owner on the grid. They also let the team get on with what the team needs to do. The owner doesn't keep saying how the team will be strengthened because the owners heritage means they know better than the team. You don't see Red Bull cars launched in the drinks factory and talk of how the drink technology will make a better racing car.

Of course that would be ridiculous, but that is what Merc aper to be doing. Why do Merc keep saying their experience of mass production (which is as relevant to F1 as a drinks can) will transform the team at Brackley? They didn't do that with McLaren, they handed over the cash and let McLaren and Ilmor get on with the job.

They didn't do it at Mclaren, but that doesn't mean they didn't try. It's pretty common knowledge that Haug and Dennis were at loggerheads over control of the team. Mercedes wanted to buy Mclaren but Dennis and Ojeh had a covenent to block any such aggressive takeover and preserve the Mclaren identity. This is why Mercedes gave up and went elsewhere.

[xpensive]

The last half a dozen posts of this thread have been great reading, thank you guys. A full hour wihtout LoL's at the other poster's arguments, imagine that?

Anyway I will stick to my guns that the mothership became involved at the concept-stage of W01 and W02.