Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
NonNewtonic
NonNewtonic
0
Joined: 09 Dec 2011, 16:55

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

Post

jrobson wrote:Great thread! I was curious about what news there are for Mercedes then ended up going through the whole thing.

Has anyone else noticed last year RBR generally ran lower gear ratio's, sometimes much lower(Monza)? I don't think this was only tied to their EBD either, it is better to get up to a lower speed fast than to get a high speed but take more time to get to the opponents lower speed (except when being overtaken). Perhaps their long wheelbase high downforce(and high drag for that matter) flattered the concept.
The reason behind for using a lower gear ratio is basically to let the car accelerate faster which is vital during the start but it will hurt the ability of the drivers to attack if the car is overtaken but from what I had seen not all yhe gears are short is the 1st 2nd and maybe 3rd is shorter than the others but the higher gear seems to be pretty normal I think thats the reason it didn't affect the top speed of the Red Bulls

aral
aral
26
Joined: 03 Apr 2010, 22:49

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

Post

NonNewtonic wrote:
jrobson wrote:Great thread! I was curious about what news there are for Mercedes then ended up going through the whole thing.

Has anyone else noticed last year RBR generally ran lower gear ratio's, sometimes much lower(Monza)? I don't think this was only tied to their EBD either, it is better to get up to a lower speed fast than to get a high speed but take more time to get to the opponents lower speed (except when being overtaken). Perhaps their long wheelbase high downforce(and high drag for that matter) flattered the concept.
The reason behind for using a lower gear ratio is basically to let the car accelerate faster which is vital during the start but it will hurt the ability of the drivers to attack if the car is overtaken but from what I had seen not all yhe gears are short is the 1st 2nd and maybe 3rd is shorter than the others but the higher gear seems to be pretty normal I think thats the reason it didn't affect the top speed of the Red Bulls
I believe that most, if not all teams would run a near identical top gear, as this would be mandated by max. revs, and wheel diameter. But some teams do gear for the max with DRS open, and others with DRS closed. That is to maximise qualifying position. Lower gears depend on the torque of the engine, aero drag and driver preference.

jrobson
jrobson
0
Joined: 16 Jan 2012, 12:17

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

Post

The first gears appear the same to me, the higher gears seem lower.... maybe not all the races, need to check. At Monza Vettel was 23KPH(15%) slower than the fastest car. Mclaren were also geared lower at the top end... 3 fastest cars around Monza were Vettel and the two Mclarens.

hardingfv32
hardingfv32
35
Joined: 03 Apr 2011, 19:42

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

Post

What are basing your first gear info on?

Brian

User avatar
raymondu999
54
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

Post

Isn't there a reg saying that you have to stay in first gear until you reach at least 100kph? I'd suspect the car's setup; and characteristics; in terms of traction; would have a lot of say in the first gear chosen by most teams.
失败者找理由,成功者找方法

User avatar
Lurk
2
Joined: 13 Feb 2010, 20:58

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

Post

Never heard of that. Maybe you mixed up with KERS rule?

First gear is generally only use at start and pit stop. All slow corners are rid in 2nd gear, except Lowes hairpin in Monaco.

mistrx
mistrx
0
Joined: 16 Mar 2009, 11:24
Location: Prague, Czech Republic

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

Post

Lurk wrote:Never heard of that. Maybe you mixed up with KERS rule?

First gear is generally only use at start and pit stop. All slow corners are rid in 2nd gear, except Lowes hairpin in Monaco.
read here ;) :

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... 2-2011.pdf

section 9.8.2

kalinka
kalinka
9
Joined: 19 Feb 2010, 00:01
Location: Hungary

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

Post

That's for 2012 only. No such reg in 2011 existed IMHO.

Boost
Boost
0
Joined: 14 Jun 2010, 19:21

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

Post

raymondu999 wrote:Isn't there a reg saying that you have to stay in first gear until you reach at least 100kph? I'd suspect the car's setup; and characteristics; in terms of traction; would have a lot of say in the first gear chosen by most teams.
You can make one gear change before the car has reached 100km/h, if my understanding of the relevant article is correct. I think that is to prevent clever strategies of changing to 2nd and then back to first to limit wheel spin.

mistrx
mistrx
0
Joined: 16 Mar 2009, 11:24
Location: Prague, Czech Republic

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

Post

kalinka wrote:That's for 2012 only. No such reg in 2011 existed IMHO.
I guess you're right, sorry for that, didn't realize it... Tried to search the FIA website, Scarb's blog etc. for full regs from 2011, but unsuccessfully :(

ESPImperium
ESPImperium
64
Joined: 06 Apr 2008, 00:08
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

Post

mistrx wrote:
Lurk wrote:Never heard of that. Maybe you mixed up with KERS rule?

First gear is generally only use at start and pit stop. All slow corners are rid in 2nd gear, except Lowes hairpin in Monaco.
read here ;) :

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... 2-2011.pdf

section 9.8.2
The new first gear rule with the KERS non activation rule till over 100km will make starts interesting.

There are 2 corners in F1 that first gear is used on, Lowes and the tight bridge turn after turn 10 at Singapore. Sometimes it is used on the penultimate chichane at Barcelona, the penultimate corner at China and the final corner at Valencia, the rest f the slow corners are all 2nd gear ones.

During an average race, first should be used 3 to 4 times in a race.

Theres 2 reasons the first gear rule has been brought into effect, the first is due to the start as some teams have been using a deliberately shirt first gear to get a good start, the other is due to the pit lane due to 1st gears ratio they have been in 2nd gear. Charlie wants the teams to use 1st in the pits for safety, and also to make sure the speed limiter can be more accurately seen on telemetry as some teams may have special devices for the pit lane to avoid going above the speed limit.

Charlie is seemingly wanting the pit speed limit at every GP at 50kmh as to make the pit lane safer and also to make it easier for mechanics and lollypop men to release the drivers from the box. He has also been looking at a new line system as well where a lollypop man cannot release a driver when another car in in a specified zone. He has also been wanting stacking banned and traffic lights in boxes banned, Charlie is wanting to have more human control in the pits, and has also been looking at the DTM system on the wheel nuts where the car is has its brakes applied until all 4 wheels have their wheel nuts on to a specified torque value as a pin is in place. This would mandate every team eventually have the same wheel nut and hub on their cars.

Charlie is wanting starts to be poorer and also better pit control, which is a good thing i think. It will mean we will be able to see which driver is the best at starting.

However its the 2014 gearbox rules that will bite, where each gearbox will have its own ratio and teams can only adjust the final drive ratio on each of the 4 gearboxes twice, no adjusting the ratios before every race. However there will be 8 gears on the gearboxes and DRS can only be engaged when the car is in 7th or 8th gear only, which will give the 7th gear a theoretical engagement at 260kmh and 8th will be engaged at a theoretical 310kmh. Gearboxes will also be a mandated minimum weight also, 55kg i believe they are looking at. The mounting points will be the same for every engine as well, which means that teams can put out a car to test another engine without too much fuss.

mistrx
mistrx
0
Joined: 16 Mar 2009, 11:24
Location: Prague, Czech Republic

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

Post

ESPImperium wrote:
mistrx wrote:
Lurk wrote:Never heard of that. Maybe you mixed up with KERS rule?

First gear is generally only use at start and pit stop. All slow corners are rid in 2nd gear, except Lowes hairpin in Monaco.
read here ;) :

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... 2-2011.pdf

section 9.8.2
Charlie is seemingly wanting the pit speed limit at every GP at 50kmh as to make the pit lane safer and also to make it easier for mechanics and lollypop men to release the drivers from the box. He has also been looking at a new line system as well where a lollypop man cannot release a driver when another car in in a specified zone. He has also been wanting stacking banned and traffic lights in boxes banned, Charlie is wanting to have more human control in the pits, and has also been looking at the DTM system on the wheel nuts where the car is has its brakes applied until all 4 wheels have their wheel nuts on to a specified torque value as a pin is in place. This would mandate every team eventually have the same wheel nut and hub on their cars.

Charlie is wanting starts to be poorer and also better pit control, which is a good thing i think. It will mean we will be able to see which driver is the best at starting.
Well I don't like this pitlane parody! 50 km per hour for christ sake! So what about drivers pushing their cars into the pits, that would be safe, wouldn't it? I couldn't find the video of Senna entering the pits from the full speed (the youtube profile is down), but at least check this one with barriers to slow drivers down!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6HWUdmt3a8[/youtube]

That is what I call driving skills, that is what I call racers! And for those kind of arguments "you need to see crashes and blood to be entertained", no , not at all! But motor racing is not and will be not safe! Although not a motorbike fan I saw recently this great documentary TT3D: Closer to the Edge http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1698010/ It is a must see for every motorsport fan! I highly recommend it. (Note: Strange, although a true Senna fan, I find this documentary better than the latest Senna movie which I saw 3 times (both versions). Honestly , I can't believe writing that!)

And after seeing those guys flying at 300km per hour on a motorbike knowin' and accepting they can die (and so far 231 of those brave racers did) during the process of driving in a city with walls and lamposts.. The need to conquer the track and go above its and their limits..unbelievable! Well, after seeing that documentary, I guess you'll have to agree that current F1 is just..laughable! (to be polite)

hardingfv32
hardingfv32
35
Joined: 03 Apr 2011, 19:42

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

Post

ESPImperium wrote: the DTM system on the wheel nuts where the car is has its brakes applied until all 4 wheels have their wheel nuts on to a specified torque value as a pin is in place.
Can anyone expand on this? This sounds very impressive.

Brian

jrobson
jrobson
0
Joined: 16 Jan 2012, 12:17

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

Post

hardingfv32 wrote:What are basing your first gear info on?

Brian
Race starts, on boards... might not be accurate at all(I did cover myself by saying it "appears" the same), it is conceivable that if the top is geared lower everything else is as well.

Either way I think the point is that even on traditional high speed tracks the idea of low drag(and down force) high top speed setup is old thinking as the 3 "slow" cars showed.

User avatar
raymondu999
54
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

Post

What was crucial though is that putting on more downforce has usually been more advantageous in qualifying this year though; as you'd get a bigger reduction every time the wing flopped up in qualifying.

Contingent; of course; on that the downforce level is "reasonable." I doubt a Monaco rear wing setup would get a good time in Monza.
失败者找理由,成功者找方法