Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

[Raptor22]

A works team is a factory team. It is run, resourced and paid for by the brand whose logo it carries.

Ferrari is a Works teams.
Mercedes AMG is a works team
Honda was a works team
Renault was a works team
Toyota was a works team.

RedBull is a technical partner to Renault Sport. they have a separate agreement to the other Renault customers. Renault ony provides technical support to the team wrt to the engines. Red Bull provides the rest.

There are no grey areas but there is the English Language. X it seems you prefer to claim an affinity to being exact when it suits you.
E.g. Mercedes "shoddy" bodywork the tests in 2011 drew your vitriole.
Now the boots on the other foot and you feel that being exact does not suit your goals so its not relevant in defining a "works" team.
At least try to be consistent with your own rules.

As a manager of people(so you claim), inconsistency is the first sign of poor management skill.

Works teams in F1 currently;
Marlboro Scuderia Ferrari Spa
Mercedes AMG PEtronas F1 GP.


all the others are chassis works teams with an engine supplier. the nature of the contract does not detract from the reality.

[Mr.S]

Britney about the new car & testing -

Nico is convinced that the team will get to win championships down the road. But in an interview with Autosport.com this month, he belives there will be no miracle cure for 2012. But with the team developing the F1 W03 for as long as possible, and not making their debut until the 2nd pre season test in Barcelona, Nico is quietly confident of a good 2012.


Q. Mercedes has taken the option of skipping the first test, and is the only team to have confirmed that plan? Do you feel that is a sign of confidence?
NR: I am happy with that. It is just the choice that they have made. It is the compromise between testing early enough and having enough time to develop. And they need to find a middle way – and they have decided that that is the best way to do it. So, no worries.And with the way the factory is going now, I am confident. This year we would not have managed to do the first race if we had run the car that late, but with the way the factory is now optimised, I am confident that we can quite happily make it happen and the car can race very soon after the first test – with just a few bits and pieces that need to be sorted out. That shows already that the team is a big improvement.

Q. And I guess it is important that those two tests are good this year, rather than a repeat of 12 months ago?
NR: Yes. But then again, I am quite comfortable that the factory works better, so the reliability initially will be better and things like that.

Q. What is realistic for 2012 then?
NR: Realistic? It is going to be consistent podiums, because I believe we can do a big step. But we need a massive step to be able to win. That is not going to be easy. But let’s go for the big step and that should be possible. It has to happen, because with all the big steps we have now and the factory working so much better, we will improve.
To become the best team in F1, we still have some way ahead of us. But that will come too. It is just going to take a bit longer. So realistically to become the best team in F1 it is going to be the year after because it is a process. Maybe we can build a car that is very, very good, but to really be the best team in F1 is going to take a little bit of time.

Q. This year the blown diffuser had such an impact on form, so do you think with things being different next year that gives Mercedes a better chance of closing up?
NR: Yeah, but even with the rule change I don’t think it will change much. There is always something and in the end, it is just the best team that does the best job with whatever they get.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Fantastic view there raptor.

My compliments.

[xpensive]

...
At least try to be consistent with your own rules.
...

And what in the world does MGP's scruffy bodywork have to do with mine or anyone else's definition of "works team"?

Besides, I'm obviously not alone with my opinion, it's not like this thread belongs to the worshipers only, is it now?

I consider RBR as Renault's works team now, unofficially perhaps, but still effectively so.

[Cocles]

and I resent anyone who's aiming at correcting me for semantic reasons.

No, we just think you don't know what a works team is.

[munudeges]

X it seems you prefer to claim an affinity to being exact when it suits you.
E.g. Mercedes "shoddy" bodywork the tests in 2011 drew your vitriole.
Now the boots on the other foot and you feel that being exact does not suit your goals so its not relevant in defining a "works" team.
At least try to be consistent with your own rules.

I cannot fathom what any of that post has got to do with what X or Raymond initially said, nor what this drivel actually means.

Mercedes is the works Mercedes team. Prior to that McLaren was the Mercedes works team because that is where their effort in Formula 1 was going and why Norbert Haug loitered around there like a spare part. Benetton was the works Ford team because that's where all their effort went and why Senna complained rather a lot about not being given the latest spec Ford engines. Red Bull is now the de facto factory Renault team for obvious reasons. If Renault and Total come up with something new that makes a difference and it means either putting it on a Red Bull or a Williams it goes to Red Bull. Easy.

Very simple. Pages and pages get wasted on these things simply because people cannot understand or want to accept basic concepts and move on. They think things are grey when there is black and white, and like here, they want black and white when there are shades of grey.

[xpensive]

and I resent anyone who's aiming at correcting me for semantic reasons.

No, we just think you don't know what a works team is.

Ah, the flock of the Mercedes congregation is offended, well xcuse me?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Er, Benetton a works ford team?

No, it was the Benetton team. Does the name not give it away?
Raptor was spot on in his observation that detractors have used scalpel like precision in criticising Mercedes, their set up, body work, engineers,, management hell even it's existence.

Yet when it comes to terminologies... Loose construct words like "de facto" appear.... To suit whatever ends.
Facts remain facts. Mercedes officially returned to formula 1 in a works team capacity as of 2010. Anything else is pissing in the wind for the sake of creating debate.

[Raptor22]

X it seems you prefer to claim an affinity to being exact when it suits you.
E.g. Mercedes "shoddy" bodywork the tests in 2011 drew your vitriole.
Now the boots on the other foot and you feel that being exact does not suit your goals so its not relevant in defining a "works" team.
At least try to be consistent with your own rules.

I cannot fathom what any of that post has got to do with what X or Raymond initially said, nor what this drivel actually means.

Mercedes is the works Mercedes team. Prior to that McLaren was the Mercedes works team because that is where their effort in Formula 1 was going and why Norbert Haug loitered around there like a spare part. Benetton was the works Ford team because that's where all their effort went and why Senna complained rather a lot about not being given the latest spec Ford engines. Red Bull is now the de facto factory Renault team for obvious reasons. If Renault and Total come up with something new that makes a difference and it means either putting it on a Red Bull or a Williams it goes to Red Bull. Easy.

Very simple. Pages and pages get wasted on these things simply because people cannot understand or want to accept basic concepts and move on. They think things are grey when there is black and white, and like here, they want black and white when there are shades of grey.

McLaren was/ is a technical partner of Mercede Benz HPE. At one point hey were shaping up to be a technical partner of Mercedes Benz Gmbh. that did not hapen and onecollaborative effort did not make McLaren a "works" partner.

Benetton was never a Works team of Ford. they were a prefered partner as the MBA speak of the time rang out. Remember 1993 when Senna insisted on the same engine and he eventually got his way when Ford move McLaren up a level to technical partner. that does not happen with a "works team"

Whichever way you and your cronies want to spin it, there are only two "Works" teams on the grid.

Red Bull could drop Renault at any time.
McLaren still has echnocal partner status with Mercedes till end 2013. then they become a paying customer ifthey take up the option.


Works teams, by definition are owned. run and resourced internally.the employees get a e.g Ferrari/Mercedes payslip.
Red Bull employee get a Red BUll payslip and the engine guys get a Renault payslip.
McLaren employees get a McLAren payslip and Mercedes engine sguys at McLaren get paid in Euro and notified via Mercedes payslip.

Its really that simple and opinions are irrelevent in this regard because these are facts and covered by worker protection legislation, Companies Acts etc.

I would think managers of people would be required to know these things

[elf341]

Doesn't a works team intrinsically have to run that team's Engine?

Could you imagine Scuderia Ferrari dropping their Ferrari engine in favour of taking the Renault RS27? Nope.

What about Red Bull dropping their Renault engine in favour of the MBHPE engine? Rumour is they already tried to do this at least once!

I think it's got to be as clear cut as that. There's absolutely no way that a works team would use an engine that is not their own, while non-works teams can switch and change engines as much as they like. Red Bull changed from Ferrari to Renault, McLaren changed from Ford to Mercedes, Williams has had more different engines than I can count on one hand!

[dren]

Give it a rest guys. It is pretty much meaningless.

[MercAMGF1Fans]

...
Black and white.
...

I will always consider Williams of the early 90s as Renault's works team, that's my opinion and I resent anyone who's aiming at correcting me for semantic reasons.

Williams Stated back then that Renault were an Engine supplier.. and the only WORKS Renault team was back in the day.

[xpensive]

In all honesty, I have tried to be nice here but calling MGP/AMG a works team is being xtremely polite, in reality it's just the old Tyrrell team which has been passed around like a tray of cookies over the years. For the moment, I guess Daimler owns it but that's about as Mercedes or AMG as it is.

[MercAMGF1Fans]

Back to Technical topic.. please guys

[Raptor22]

it may have been the old tyrell team of years gone by but more than a lot has changed since then.

I could claim Ferrari to be an alfa romeo works team since thats were Ferari started out as well!

Works team is owner, run and resourced by the brand whose logo it carries.

It been lovely dancing with you but really, your two left feet are tiring and I really have to go.