Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

[munudeges]

it may have been the old tyrell team of years gone by but more than a lot has changed since then.

What was that about people changing things to suit them?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Because tyrell saved the team from the brink, because tyrell invested millions in the latest simulator, because tyrell was behind the appointments of costa Willis and Bell, because tyrell brought Schumacher out of retirement, because tyrell have commited more money to catching the top 3 by investing in a 100 new employees.

Damn, he does good business from the grave(due respect for ken, a legend)


Now can we please move on to matters W03 or just not post on this thread the next time a synapse flashes?


Thank you kindly.

[Raptor22]

Rather than a stalling device, could there not be another purpose for the air flowing into the nose, down through the wing pylons and then exiting somewhere around the main plane? For example, could the trailing edge of the main plane be designed to exhaust the airflow at high pressure either side of the mandated central wing section in order to create a sealing effect for airflow over the central section of wing to the bib splitter so that turbulent air from around the front wheel assembly/tyres could not bleed into the flow over the central section of wing therefore offering cleaner air to the front of the floor?

I see where you're going with this but I believe what you're outlining is overcomplicated to what the design was intended for, but possible. The tricky part of this technology is that many tracks would require different versions of this wing with different diameters inside the pylons which would affect at what pressure the wing would stall. Obviously a Monza spec wing would be set up in a 'high stall' setting while Monaco would be very low still if none at all.

The idea behind it is wonderful though: run more rake on the front wing full-knowing at a certain speed the front wing will essentially lose 15-20% of its effectiveness allowing for greater in-line speed. The trick will be tuning the thing to know precisely when you want it to stall. One could roughly postulate that the wing stall should be tuned for 15mph above the highest speed reached at the quickest corner on the track. So if it's a 125mph corner, tune the wing stall above 140mph. It's difficult tuning a switch when in essence there is no switch, but a venturi type device in a 90 degree mounted pylon! Difficult technology.

The Fluidic switching works on pressure not airspeed. it would need to switch the flow to stall the wing as a certain pressure inside the accumulator in the nose cone. That's very tricky because in the turbulent wake of a car ahead you could have a pressure spike above the switching pressure and loose downforce on the front wing when its actually needed most.

[Cocles]

The only thing BAR used of Tyrrell was their spot on the grid. In other words, some paper-work. So the statement was moot from the start. Between not knowing what AMG is, what a Works Team is, nor the history of the team itself... this thread seems to fly off into silly-land whenever some of the engineers here decide to venture outside of engineering.

[Raptor22]

The only thing BAR used of Tyrrell was their spot on the grid. In other words, some paper-work. So the statement was moot from the start. Between not knowing what AMG is, what a Works Team is, nor the history of the team itself... this thread seems to fly off into silly-land whenever some of the engineers here decide to venture outside of engineering.

you mean "engineers"...

[marcush.]

as far as I understand ,Mercedes has yet to submit its homologation parts for crash testing ?
Could it really be they changed that much after Willis and Costa joined the party?

[Raptor22]

just because its not been reported does not mean noting has been submitted yet...
Only failures make the news

[dren]

as far as I understand ,Mercedes has yet to submit its homologation parts for crash testing ?
Could it really be they changed that much after Willis and Costa joined the party?

We are just now hearing about other teams passing the tests. Mercedes is most likely two weeks behind, so we should hear soon.

[Ferraripilot]

as far as I understand ,Mercedes has yet to submit its homologation parts for crash testing ?
Could it really be they changed that much after Willis and Costa joined the party?

We are just now hearing about other teams passing the tests. Mercedes is most likely two weeks behind, so we should hear soon.

I thought their chassis/survival cell had to pass crash test standards months ago?

[Schulteiss]

as far as I understand ,Mercedes has yet to submit its homologation parts for crash testing ?
Could it really be they changed that much after Willis and Costa joined the party?

Possibly yes, I would think this to be the main reason for missing the first test anyway.

[Ferraripilot]

Rather than a stalling device, could there not be another purpose for the air flowing into the nose, down through the wing pylons and then exiting somewhere around the main plane? For example, could the trailing edge of the main plane be designed to exhaust the airflow at high pressure either side of the mandated central wing section in order to create a sealing effect for airflow over the central section of wing to the bib splitter so that turbulent air from around the front wheel assembly/tyres could not bleed into the flow over the central section of wing therefore offering cleaner air to the front of the floor?

I see where you're going with this but I believe what you're outlining is overcomplicated to what the design was intended for, but possible. The tricky part of this technology is that many tracks would require different versions of this wing with different diameters inside the pylons which would affect at what pressure the wing would stall. Obviously a Monza spec wing would be set up in a 'high stall' setting while Monaco would be very low still if none at all.

The idea behind it is wonderful though: run more rake on the front wing full-knowing at a certain speed the front wing will essentially lose 15-20% of its effectiveness allowing for greater in-line speed. The trick will be tuning the thing to know precisely when you want it to stall. One could roughly postulate that the wing stall should be tuned for 15mph above the highest speed reached at the quickest corner on the track. So if it's a 125mph corner, tune the wing stall above 140mph. It's difficult tuning a switch when in essence there is no switch, but a venturi type device in a 90 degree mounted pylon! Difficult technology.

The Fluidic switching works on pressure not airspeed. it would need to switch the flow to stall the wing as a certain pressure inside the accumulator in the nose cone. That's very tricky because in the turbulent wake of a car ahead you could have a pressure spike above the switching pressure and loose downforce on the front wing when its actually needed most.

I started a thread on this in the aero section, but at this point, I don't believe anything involving air velocity could be used as a switching mechanism due to your reasonings you outlined above. A fluid switch or analogue spring slide valve or switch could cut-off or open flow based on g-force either as a result of braking or turn-in. I believe I would prefer braking based on its ability to work with the new ride height system.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

@ dren

Dovetails with their late show. Lets see what happens in the next few days

Scarbs has kindly mooted he thinks the fduct won't be present on the W03, and he may well be right.... But, problem is other teams were looking at this with great interest. I'm sure the w02 suffered problems beyond those of its competitors, specifically McLaren who expressed much interest in this concept. So there is mileage in this solution.

I reckon if we aren't seeing the fduct wing(and my tip off being wrong!) then we will be seeing something novel. Note novel, note reinventing the wheel.


Good the thread is back! =D>

[volarchico]

Is there any chance that the whole entire front-wing f-duct rumors have been misconstrued from the Lotus (Renault) type device they are now working on to control front ride height under braking?

From the pieces I've put together, both are to do essentially the same thing, but at different portions of the track: maintain front wing height so it could be set statically lower so that under braking (or under high aero loads), the wing wouldn't be scraping, but it would be as close as possible...

[marcush.]

I thought the main asset of having an f-duct was the drag benefit in stalled condition.
But as we know ,the front wing does not contribute in the same magnitude to overall drag as the rear wing so maybe the benefits are just not big enough for all the hard work and then you still got the switching sensation as well as you shed or gain downforce...understeer condition or in yaw interruption of the stall condition and snap oversteer maybe induced by a massive swing of aerobalance...At the rear it´s the opposite around,as soon as you get into a yaw position the switch is towards more downforce and stability?

so maybe the trick is how to design the f-duct functionality at the front insensitive to yaw ?

[dren]

What kind of wild ideas are you expecting JET? The more I think about it, the more I expect the other teams to shorten their wheel bases, unless there are other ways to keep the diffuser flow attached in the absence of EBD.