Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

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just to add another dimension to this discussion;
does this put anyone else in mind of the "swing-in lock" mechanism that was used to reduce /stop body roll under lateral g-force load during cornering?
(obviously the system being discussed on this thread is hydraulic and longitudinal, but running on similar principals)

anyone know under what ruling that was banned and whether it would apply to a hydraulic system with a what seems to me to have the same goal and is triggered in the same way?
(whether the system is acting laterally for anti roll, or longitudinally for anti dive)

hardingfv32
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

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1) A 'load" is created by the mercury under longitudinal accelerations. This 'load' from the mercury hydraulic interlink circuit is being applied to the suspension in violation of 10.1.2. Very clear.

2) Even if you believe 10.2.1 is not an issue, You are still up against the no adjustment while moving rule. No way this is ever found legal under the current rules.

This is a good idea, but to be really creative it must encompass the rule restrictions successfully.

Brian

MercAMGF1Fans
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

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hardingfv32 wrote:1) A 'load" is created by the mercury under longitudinal accelerations. This 'load' from the mercury hydraulic interlink circuit is being applied to the suspension in violation of 10.1.2. Very clear.

2) Even if you believe 10.2.1 is not an issue, You are still up against the no adjustment while moving rule. No way this is ever found legal under the current rules.

This is a good idea, but to be really creative it must encompass the rule restrictions successfully.

Brian
I'm gonna quote James Allen here..
"Ross Brawn is a million times cleverer than me." - to which planet-f1.com added *understatement*

seriously guys, i'm sure Ross and Bob have it all figured out.

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raymondu999
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

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While I agree with your post; Planet F1 is really rather rubbish.
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hardingfv32
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

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MercAMGF1Fans wrote:I'm gonna quote James Allen here..
"Ross Brawn is a million times cleverer than me." - to which planet-f1.com added *understatement*

seriously guys, i'm sure Ross and Bob have it all figured out.
After last seasons performance, exactly how clever are they?

It makes no difference what they know if they don't tell us. We are trying to figure out how this system works and if it can function under the current rule set. It is a learning exercise for us.

Brian

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pocketmoon
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

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hardingfv32 wrote:After last seasons performance, exactly how clever are they?
Not clever enough and too radical with the short wheelbase. Could this have something to do with the departure of Steve Clarke ? Not sure if he would have been responsible for that design.

Schulteiss
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

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We are still speculating about something that may not even appear on the car. Mercedes is as tight-lipped about the car as can be. Though its fun to see the detractors and opponents squeal for a Charlie Whiting scrutiny. :D IF this suspension happens to be true, it is sure to be scrutinized very carefully. We'll see what happens. Unfortunately, still three weeks to go.

Raptor22
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

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hardingfv32 wrote:1) A 'load" is created by the mercury under longitudinal accelerations. This 'load' from the mercury hydraulic interlink circuit is being applied to the suspension in violation of 10.1.2. Very clear.
Incorrect. There is always a load applied to the suspension from the fluid under dynamic conditions. The damper fluid has mass, and friction. The rules you keep refering to are written to prevent an active suspension being employed.
2) Even if you believe 10.2.1 is not an issue, You are still up against the no adjustment while moving rule. No way this is ever found legal under the current rules.

This is a good idea, but to be really creative it must encompass the rule restrictions successfully.

Brian
The system as hypothesised is legal for the very reason that it is not an active system. It is a reactive system.
Again the no adjustment rule is written to exclude the old active suspension systems where stepper motors continuously varied the damping settings.
The system as hypothesised only works when the environment of acceleration in detected and it reacts to that environment. The inertia valve is merely an amplifier of sorts. It is not predicting or measuring the road ahead to apply the optimum suspension settings.

Chose to believe its illegal if you wish, it is very clearly not because inertia valve dampers have been in use in F1 for a long time. Some of these have an air pressure based system while others use a displaced mass system

hardingfv32
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

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[quote="Raptor22"]Incorrect. There is always a load applied to the suspension from the fluid under dynamic conditions. The damper fluid has mass, and friction. The rules you keep referring to are written to prevent an active suspension being employed. [quote]

I disagree. The shock, when mounted parallel to the longitudinal axis of the car does not develop a load on the shock piston that changes the ride height.

I believe a key flaw in your logic is that you are relating everything to the prevention of an active suspension system. These rules make no mention of active suspension. They represent clear individual requirements.

10.1.2 Loads only from the wheels, period. Not from a remote mercury chamber.

10.2.3 No suspension adjustment, period. This system changes the ride height adjustment.

Any examples of a inertia valve dampers in racing? That would be inertia from lateral or longitudinal movement.

Brian

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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

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bhallg2k wrote:Like I said, my example is an exaggeration. I do understand that, ultimately, it's the wheels that are both the input mechanism for the suspension's response and the instruments with which it responds. There's no way around that.

My contention is that the additional inertial force provided to the suspension by the (insert name of dense liquid here), no matter what caused that liquid to move, is not permitted within the rule as I read it. In fact, I think there's no reason for the rule to exist except to disallow a system such as the one being discussed. Otherwise, it's just pointing out the obvious fact that suspension forces are applied through the wheels.

Or am I missing a reason for why that would need to be spelled out?
Your example is very interesting.. because the if there is a difference in elevation between the front and the rear the two fluids will move in the system.

While on a slope the denser mercury will push the hydraulic oil to the top of the system. Until the pressure across the pistons are balanced. Example going downhill to La source at Spa the front suspension will begin to lift and the rear will begin to squat. - all until the force from the suspension + the less dense fluid balances the pistons.

Example a 3 meter long tubes one with mercury - 13.6g/cm^3 and lets use water for the other tube. at a 5 degree slope.

the elevation between front and rear is 3000 mm * sin(5) = 260mm.

Pressure difference across piston
=0.26m * (13.6-1)*1000kg/m^3 * 9.81m/s^2
~ 32,000N/m^2
~ 4.6 psi

With a 65mm diameter piston..it gives an unbalanced force of 107N (~11kg) at each front piston.

So the car will begin so squat as it goes down hill - lowering the diffuser and raising the front wing.

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Last edited by PlatinumZealot on 30 Jan 2012, 04:05, edited 1 time in total.
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bhall
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

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Raptor22 wrote:The rules you keep refering to are written to prevent an active suspension being employed.
I disagree. I think the following rule was written to prevent an active suspension:

10.2.2 Any powered device which is capable of altering the configuration or affecting the performance of any part of the suspension system is forbidden.

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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

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hardingfv32 wrote:
Raptor22 wrote:Incorrect. There is always a load applied to the suspension from the fluid under dynamic conditions. The damper fluid has mass, and friction. The rules you keep referring to are written to prevent an active suspension being employed.

I disagree. The shock, when mounted parallel to the longitudinal axis of the car does not develop a load on the shock piston that changes the ride height.

I believe a key flaw in your logic is that you are relating everything to the prevention of an active suspension system. These rules make no mention of active suspension. They represent clear individual requirements.

10.1.2 Loads only from the wheels, period. Not from a remote mercury chamber.

10.2.3 No suspension adjustment, period. This system changes the ride height adjustment.

Any examples of a inertia valve dampers in racing? That would be inertia from lateral or longitudinal movement.

Brian
Brian. I agree with you in some senses and I a disagree with Raptor in some senses. AS yes there are a few flaws in what he is saying.

I also say that the momentum from the mercury is another load. Very possible Illegal. It is similar to charging a flywheel and releasing it. (Inertial energy storage). I have only conceded to it being legal because there is a strong argument that the loads from the tyre accelerate the Mercury system itself.

HOWEVER. This is not true when the car is going downhill!! This is where the load input of the tyre can be constant and do not influence the acceleration of the car or the fluid (gravity does) - and there will still be a response in the suspension due to elevation difference. As I have just stated in my previous post.

Going downhill - constant tyre load - but the system still responds.

Could be very well illegal..
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bhall
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

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n smikle wrote:Your example is very interesting..
All I can say is thank you for actually reading what I've written. Cheers.

ForMuLaOne
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

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n smikle wrote: I have only conceded to it being legal because there is a strong argument that the loads from the tyre accelerate the Mercury system itself.

HOWEVER. This is not true when the car is going downhill!! This is where the load input of the tyre can be constant and do not influence the acceleration of the car or the fluid (gravity does) - and there will still be a response in the suspension due to elevation difference. As I have just stated in my previous post.

Going downhill - constant tyre load - but the system still responds.

Could be very well illegal..
There IS NO RESPONSE OF COURSE! A normal system would response to that, a normal car! The striking point is, that they DONT want any response under your very well described circumstances. But they also dont want to build a car that pushes the front higher than the rear under braking. Therefore they chose an amount of liquid that will do everything needed to stay JUST under normal rideheights, not above as this was not in line with the rules. WHY?!

If you put your car on an elevated surface, the higher tyre load of the front will be compensated by the liquid. But it won`t push up the front! You can choose now between a balanced amount of liquid, or you just put more in your system and add a valve that releases the fluid at 1G or more. If the car was standing still on any surface: any acceleration below 1G covers an angle between zero and 90 degrees. At zero degrees you measure zero G (horizontal axis of the car) and 1 G vertical. For a 90 degree downhill you measured 1 G applied in horizontal axis and zero G in vertival axis of the car. System was not working between both and IN either states....eat more Brawnis :D

AbulafiaF1
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

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@ n_smickle: As ForMulaOne has said, this is not a problem. If you read the 2nd article again you'll see that a manually triggered valve (one in front of each heave cylinder) can be triggered according to the suspension position, exactly to prevent the overshoot of the nose.