Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

[Schulteiss]

15.1.1 The following is the list of permitted materials. These are the only materials permitted to be
used in the construction of the Formula One Car provided only that in all cases the material is
available on a non-exclusive basis and under normal commercial terms to all competitors.
Permitted materials :
1) Aluminium alloys.
2) Silicon carbide particulate reinforced aluminium alloy matrix composites.
3) Steel alloys.
4) Cobalt alloys.
5) Copper alloys containing ≤ 2.5% by weight of Beryllium.
6) Titanium alloys (but not for use in fasteners with <15mm diameter male thread).
7) Magnesium alloys.
8 ) Nickel based alloys containing 50% < Ni < 69%.
9) Tungsten alloy.
10) Thermoplastics : monolithic, particulate filled, short fibre reinforced.
11) Thermosets : monolithic, particulate filled, short fibre reinforced.
12) Carbon fibres manufactured from polyacrylonitrile (PAN) precursor. (*)
13) Carbon fibres manufactured from polyacrylonitrile (PAN) precursor which have :
- A tensile modulus ≤ 550GPa.
- A density ≤ 1.92 g/cm3.
- Unidirectional or planar reinforcement within their pre-impregnated form, not
including three dimensional weaves or stitched fabrics (but three dimensional
preforms and fibre reinforcement using Z-pinning technology are permitted).
- No carbon nanotubes incorporated within the fibre or its matrix.
- A permitted matrix, not including a carbon matrix.
14) Aramid fibres.
15) Poly(p-phenylene benzobisoxazole) fibres (e.g. “Zylon”).
16) Polyethylene fibres.
17) Polypropylene fibres.
18) E and S Glass fibres.
19) Sandwich panel cores: Aluminium, Nomex, polymer foams, syntactic foams, balsa wood,
carbon foam.
20) The matrix system utilised in all pre-impregnated materials must be epoxy, cyanate
ester, phenolic, bismaleimide, polyurethane, polyester or polyimide based.

Hence Mercury is not a permitted material. (Surprise surprise...)

Materials used in the construction of the suspension or any item linking the suspension are not listed exceptions to this rule.

So basically any other arguments about the proposed systems legality in terms of suspension setup are irrelevant, it is not legal full stop.

LOL, you are way off the mark here. Are hydraulic fluids listed also? Maybe you missed the word "construction" too.....

[ForMuLaOne]

I don`t want to stop the discussion, but to shorten it. Please read the last five pages before asking questions. Everyday one have to post the same arguments. This is not constructive anymore as enlightenment does not come without a search for it

[Schulteiss]

In the interest of stating something obvious here, don't you think MB would have been working closely with the FiA regarding the legality of this issue? This is especially true since the Lotus system was banned. I'm sure MB would not have dug in deep with this idea without FiA reviewing MB's intentions and giving the all-clear first. Lotus did this but were not entirely forthcoming (so it seems anyway) with their intentions and the system was subsequently banned rather quickly. We have heard nothing of the sort regarding this system and considering a smaller version of this system appears to have been used last year at least on the rear end I'm not sure we will hear anything further from the FiA unless of course it starts to win.....a lot!

This.

Just ignoring any tech arguments for a moment, implying that Ross Brawn would throw resources at a 1 year development process without being sure it is legal, is, well, slightly dumb. Maybe some here should be reminded what exactly happened with the DD in 2008 at the tech meetings? Also, it def seemed to me that it was specifically the Lotus type of system that was banned. Mark Gillan said "The FIA has just banned that particular type of system,". Of course, IF Mercedes has the sytem at all. And at least 3 teams have had interlinked suspensions last year, Ferrari, Mercedes, and Marussia, according to Scarbs.

[Raptor22]

Answer the following question please:

In an hydraulic system, which component creates the pressure:

1) The pump
2) the plumbing
3) the Load
4) and electric motor

[hardingfv32]

It seems to me that many look at 10.1.2 from vertical load perspective only and I don't see that in the regs.

True, the wheels have longitudinal loads or accelerations. These would have an effect on the mercury column, but the chassis ALSO has an effect (much larger) on the mercury column. That is a violation. The loads are not restricted to the wheels in this application. The suspension is being acted upon by a load not 100% generated by the wheels.

There is no interpretation required to defend this position.

Brian

[Raptor22]

I beg to differ, it is all a matter of interpretation.

THe chassis always has effect on the suspension,

Your physics also poor. The suspension is always being acted upon by a load generated at the wheels. all that is changing is the load distribution.

[hardingfv32]

Answer the following question please:

In an hydraulic system, which component creates the pressure:

1) The pump
2) the plumbing
3) the Load
4) and electric motor

Now your are proposing more questions with responding to past questions. We can not come to any conclusions without keeping the conversation focused. I made some valid points, what is your response to them?

This is a hydraulic system without a pump or electric motor, so what? Do all hydraulic systems require a pump connected to a power source?

Does this mercury system not create pressure? Is force or work no required to create this pressure?

Brian

[Raptor22]

answer the question instead of dancing around please.

What creates the pressure?

[jav]

answer the question instead of dancing around please.

What creates the pressure?

I think your looking for the "pump" but that isn't always true... the load can also create the pressure.

[Raptor22]

I want Brian to answer

[bhall]

THe chassis always has effect on the suspension,

[...] The suspension is always being acted upon by a load generated at the wheels [...]

I think that because those are very obvious and inescapable facts, the very tenants of every contemporary suspension ever made for a wheeled vehicle, I do not see a reason for the regulations to stipulate that the "suspension system must be so arranged that its response results only from changes in load applied to the wheels" unless the intention of the regulation is to disallow the type of system we're discussing. Otherwise, even by FIA standards, it's just a silly redundant statement.

[Raptor22]

call to strike: you are presuming what the rules should read and not what it in facts reads.

now apply you twisty and twirly brain to the question at hand. In a hydraulic system, what creates the pressure...

failure to answer will reveal a complete and utter lack of understanding of hydraulics and will disqualify your arguement.

[aral]

LOL, you are way off the mark here. Are hydraulic fluids listed also? Maybe you missed the word "construction" too.....

Unfortunately, Mercury is classed as a metal/material. Neither is it listed in allowable fluids.

[bhall]

I presume nothing. I stated my interpretation of the rule as it's written and presented it for discussion. This is what adults do when there's a disagreement about the intended meaning of something. It's why Charlie Whiting has a job.

You, on the other hand, presume that we're in a fantasy land where your whims should dictate the actions of others.

You are, of course, free to disqualify whatever you wish from me or from anyone else. But, please know that such actions demonstrate nothing but ignorance and an inability to think beyond the narrow constraints of your mind.

[Raptor22]

LOL, you are way off the mark here. Are hydraulic fluids listed also? Maybe you missed the word "construction" too.....

Unfortunately, Mercury is classed as a metal/material. Neither is it listed in allowable fluids.

You sure its not exempt,.... under "Oils"....

Mercury may fall under metals on the periodic table that does not m,ean it is limited to serve only as a metal and nothing else.

I've never seen a solid manufactured from a liquid unless its natural state is a solid. polymeric reactions excluded of course.

Then I could also draw attention to Tungsten as a listed material.... Pretty dense that metal is