Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

[MIKEY_!]

As long as no mercury escapes the system no one can get hurt. 'What about a crash?' I hear you say, well at least it's not highly flammable and poisonous like petrol! No one complains about that (except the eco poeple)

[Shakeman]

As long as no mercury escapes the system no one can get hurt. 'What about a crash?' I hear you say, well at least it's not highly flammable and poisonous like petrol! No one complains about that (except the eco poeple)

Fire + Mercury is an unpleasant combination. No driver or fire marshall should be expected to inhale mercury fumes in the event of a fire.

I don't think any system with mercury in it will be allowed by the FIA.

[ForMuLaOne]

Well, i really want the car to be shown. Cannot wait any longer. Then we will truly know whats behind our talk ;D

[Robbobnob]

fire + petrol is no walk in the park either... the fumes given off are also toxic...

[PlatinumZealot]

One last sentence: On a formula one car, every force, every acceleration and the following consequences are a result of a force or load that has been applied to the tyres, as they are the only contact to the ground. This should be enough to understand the rules and the system.

Not true. There is acceleration due to gravity. That is constant. The tyres don't have to touch the ground for the mercury system to work. And depending on the orientation of the car it will have different effects on an acceleration based system.

[hardingfv32]

What creates the pressure?

Sorry, I had some dyno work that had to be done.

The pressure is caused by the movement of the mercury column. The mercury does move during braking, deceleration, correct? The mercury column is the 'pump' if that is how you wish to diagram it.

Brian

[hardingfv32]

One last sentence: On a formula one car, every force, every acceleration and the following consequences are a result of a force or load that has been applied to the tyres, as they are the only contact to the ground. This should be enough to understand the rules and the system.

This is a fair statement. So let us break down 10.1.2: The suspension system must be so arranged that its response results only from changes in load applied to the wheels.

A load is being created by the mercury column, correct? That load is applied to the suspension system not the wheels. The application of this load changes the ride height. This change in ride height does not change any of the loads on the wheels. If the system is blocked off so the mercury can not move, the loads on the wheels stay the same during braking. Clearly the suspension is not responding to changes in wheel loads using this system, because there no deference in loads between an active or in-active mercury system.

Good challenge , but i think I have posted a valid defense.

Brian

[PlatinumZealot]

That is correct. It is like a 20 foot tank filled with water. It can store gravitational potential energy and release it via pressure difference.


The thing with the mercury column is that it can work independent of tyre loads. Because the inertia of it contained fluid is now significant.


The mercury column will move continuously and independently of wheel load until it hits the limiter when the car is on a slope. (Imagine that 20 foot tall water tank piped into another empty tank - it will empty out until the water level reaches a float switch or pressure equalises, lock off valve etc. )

[Raptor22]

One last sentence: On a formula one car, every force, every acceleration and the following consequences are a result of a force or load that has been applied to the tyres, as they are the only contact to the ground. This should be enough to understand the rules and the system.

This is a fair statement. So let us break down 10.1.2: The suspension system must be so arranged that its response results only from changes in load applied to the wheels.

A load is being created by the mercury column, correct? That load is applied to the suspension system not the wheels. The application of this load changes the ride height. This change in ride height does not change any of the loads on the wheels. If the system is blocked off so the mercury can not move, the loads on the wheels stay the same during braking. Clearly the suspension is not responding to changes in wheel loads using this system, because there no deference in loads between an active or in-active mercury system.

Good challenge , but i think I have posted a valid defense.

Brian

As i suspected, dodgy science.

The pressure is created by the LOAD.
Correct that the "mercury column" is a sort of pump. Pumps create flow but need t be able to create flow against a load.

Think front end loader. The hydraulics has to lift the big basket in front. Remove the hydraulic line connection to the basket there will be no load. The pressure gauge will show 0kpaGauge. (well in reality it will show a small pressure due to frcition losses in the lines creating a small pressure) Reattach the line and the pressure will jump to the operating system pressure.
Hence pressure is created by the load.

This load at the wheels (back to our car) is transferred to the springs via the control arms (creating leverage at the mounting points (hence a 50mm diameter piston can suspend 150Kg)

nsmikle,
lifting the wheels off the ground will draw the dampers to their bump stops correct since there is no load on the suspension. So the inertia valve cannot.
Right so you contend that it will move due to the cars inclination.
Lets assume that the mercury is entrained on either end of the containing vessel by a piston.
Remember that this is a closed system transfering applied forces at the wheels to the mercury column to create a flow to move fluid to resist suspension travel at a present load.
With no load at an angle of say 45 degrees you contend the mercury column will move due to its own weight and pump the suspension fluid to lower the front wishbones.
How can it do this if the front suspension is already at its bump stops and has no where to go.....?

Mount the car on a 7 axis rig and tilt it away like crazy. The suspension still will not move until it sees a load large enough to overcome friction to get the system moving.


Another principal of hydraulics I should share.

I have two cyclinders with heavy pistons in them.
Both are standing vertically on their ends, both are connected to a hydraulic circuit.
One piston has blown seal and the others is fully functioning.
What will happen to each piston If I leave them be for a few hours??

humour me please because the principals apply to the discussion.

BTW we have already agreed that the mercury column creates flow.

[bhall]

On second thought, never mind.

[hardingfv32]

As i suspected, dodgy science.

Well, maybe not the right terms for a hydrualics expert. I can accept that, but now what is wrong with my statement:

A pressure or force is being created by the mercury column, correct? That presssure or force is applied to the suspension system not the wheels. The application of this pressure or force changes the ride height.

This change in ride height does not change any of the loads on the wheels. True or False?

If the system is blocked off so the mercury can not move, the loads on the wheels stay the same during braking. Clearly the suspension is not responding to changes in wheel loads using this system, because there no deference in loads at the wheels between an active or in-active mercury system. BUT, there is a difference with how the suspension functions when the mercury system is operational.

Why is this not a violation of 10.1.2?

Brian

[retpog55]

=D>
You are really funny guys, same thing as last year, the car isn't even launched, but we already have 80+ pages discussing things that are not confirmed to be on the car or even mentioned by a team member...

Just like last year(s), mercedes has some secret weapon, it a super exhaust, its a super small sidepod... this year its a super FW F-duct, its a super linked suspension, and again super sidepods with trick coolers...

Lets just wait and see if they meet expectations this year, don't fight about something legal or not which isn't even announced to be on the car, do it if they are driving miles ahead of the rest, if not, then its just same old same old...
and you fought about nothing
[-o<

I hear what you're saying, but this is a speculation forum at the end of the day.

Looks like Ferrari going with the ultra slimmed down sidepods -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/timvickery/f1.jpg

Merc to follow suit?

[jav]

As i suspected, dodgy science.

Well, maybe not the right terms for a hydrualics expert. I can accept that, but now what is wrong with my statement:

A pressure or force is being created by the mercury column, correct? That presssure or force is applied to the suspension system not the wheels. The application of this pressure or force changes the ride height.

This change in ride height does not change any of the loads on the wheels. True or False?

If the system is blocked off so the mercury can not move, the loads on the wheels stay the same during braking. Clearly the suspension is not responding to changes in wheel loads using this system, because there no deference in loads at the wheels between an active or in-active mercury system. BUT, there is a difference with how the suspension functions when the mercury system is operational.

Why is this not a violation of 10.1.2?

Brian

Brian-

I understand what your trying to say but it seems your not getting an important point. Force or pressure are NOT being "created" by the mercury column, The intertia acting on the mercury are creating "flow".

Flow is not pressure until a "load" resists the flow and pressure builds (to a state of equilibrium) based on the load (and having a tight closed system).

It's a cause and effect arguement and I think you have them reversed. The Mecury isn't the source of the force or pressure- but it does react to the forces being created by the tires and the cars motion. It's not active, nor can it alter ride height or exert force on any suspension member in and of itself.

[Ferraripilot]

The Mecury isn't the source of the force or pressure- but it does react to the forces being created by the tires and the cars motion. It's not active, nor can it alter ride height or exert force on any suspension member in and of itself.

This is why it's legal. Perfectly put

[dren]

Think of it this way: when you drive a car and step on the throttle pedal the load at the tires accelerates the car and you are pushed forward by the seat which was also equally accelerated. That pressure at your back was caused by the load that accelerated the car. The same happens when the brake is applied. The pressure from the seatbelt is due to your inertia and the deceleration of the car due to the load at the tires. You are the mercury.