Mercedes AMG F1 W03 (pre-launch speculation)

[bhall]

Classic. Well played, sir.

[MercAMGF1Fans]

For god's sake tell them to make sure it's a picture of the suspension

=D> =D>

[yace]

just a comparison between the photoshop i did 2 weeks ago, and the vjm05. there is some likeness. what do you think?

[avatar]

Is the response in the mercury Inertial hydraulics suspension only derived from the wheel load?

Ooh.

Decelleration due to Aero drag when lifting throttle at full speed....

...doesn't that provide significant braking purely from Aero, which, other than he wheels and brake duct gubbins is *all* acting on the *edit* sprung */edit* car, not the wheels.

I don't know the figures for Aero braking on an F1 car, but if the system activated are or below the possible force from Aero braking, it should probably be illegal.

Add to that the DRS disengagement adding back a load of drag back (thus decelleration force not applied at the wheel) at the point of breaking, and I can't see it being justified.

What do you reckon?

*edited to replace unsprung with sprung (silly typo, but I think those who've read it understood what I was saying)

[Raptor22]

Is the response in the mercury Inertial hydraulics suspension only derived from the wheel load?

Ooh.

Decelleration due to Aero drag when lifting throttle at full speed....

...doesn't that provide significant braking purely from Aero, which, other than he wheels and brake duct gubbins is *all* acting on the unsprung car, not the wheels.

I don't know the figures for Aero braking on an F1 car, but if the system activated are or below the possible force from Aero braking, it should probably be illegal.

Add to that the DRS disengagement adding back a load of drag back (thus decelleration force not applied at the wheel) at the point of breaking, and I can't see it being justified.

What do you reckon?

It depends where the CoG is in relation to the Centre of pressure for the car.
Any drag force will have a couple with the statics and dynamics properties of the car.
Another thing to sonsider is drag is proportional to velocity and the drag coefficient of the car. At what point would the forces balance to reduce the couple

you need actual data an this is a problem that would be considered during the design of the car

[Leon]

Hope we won't see the ugly-nosed W03, but the hope is too small.

[Huntresa]

Since the W02 used pretty much a nose like that i think W03 will have one.

[Leon]

maybe the fw26 style solution

[PlatinumZealot]

Is the response in the mercury Inertial hydraulics suspension only derived from the wheel load?

Ooh.

Decelleration due to Aero drag when lifting throttle at full speed....

...doesn't that provide significant braking purely from Aero, which, other than he wheels and brake duct gubbins is *all* acting on the unsprung car, not the wheels.

I don't know the figures for Aero braking on an F1 car, but if the system activated are or below the possible force from Aero braking, it should probably be illegal.

Add to that the DRS disengagement adding back a load of drag back (thus decelleration force not applied at the wheel) at the point of breaking, and I can't see it being justified.

What do you reckon?

The thing is, unlike the air around the car the inertial Mercury system is a device built into the car.

Charlie Whiting and the technical working group will have to determine if the system influences the wheel loads on its own.

In a purely mechanical sense, it is like a small hydro power plant. Like the hover damn, It releases gravitational Potential energy into motion. There are instances IMO when it does this without any influence from wheel loads.

I gave up arguing on this topic though. Lets just wait and see what the experts have to say about the inertial aspects of it.

[hardingfv32]

Decelleration due to Aero drag when lifting throttle at full speed.... it should probably be illegal.

You are spot on. Very sharp observation.

Brian

[hardingfv32]

In a purely mechanical sense, it is like a small hydro power plant. Like the hover damn, It releases gravitational Potential energy into motion. There are instances IMO when it does this without any influence from wheel loads.

Should I also be complementing you for a sharp observation? Not clear to me who came up with this theme first.

Brian

[gato azul]

I gave up arguing on this topic though. Lets just wait and see what the experts have to say about the inertial aspects of it.

wonder why this has been the case ?

Ahh....
I forgot, you already provided the answer to that

Some people "Tap out" when it gets too technical and when they have no scientifically sound response.

but maybe you just have realized the fault in your little drawing in the meantime.

[gato azul]

Is the response in the mercury Inertial hydraulics suspension only derived from the wheel load?

Ooh.

Decelleration due to Aero drag when lifting throttle at full speed....

...doesn't that provide significant braking purely from Aero, which, other than he wheels and brake duct gubbins is *all* acting on the *edit* sprung */edit* car, not the wheels.

I don't know the figures for Aero braking on an F1 car, but if the system activated are or below the possible force from Aero braking, it should probably be illegal.

Add to that the DRS disengagement adding back a load of drag back (thus decelleration force not applied at the wheel) at the point of breaking, and I can't see it being justified.

What do you reckon?

*edited to replace unsprung with sprung (silly typo, but I think those who've read it understood what I was saying)

good point, but lifting off the throttle would most likely not only create braking from aero drag, you would need to de-clutch, to eliminate the effect of engine braking at the same time.
In this case, as others noted, it will depend on the location of the the CoP (in vertical [z] axis)if you see a change in vertical wheel loads, due to pitch moment around the CoG or not.

And I think, around 25 pages ago, someone already suggested the use of an "threshold" valve in the system to account for this case.[only acceleration >1G (or whatever) trigger a response from the system, similar in principle to an "preloaded spring"

[PlatinumZealot]

I gave up arguing on this topic though. Lets just wait and see what the experts have to say about the inertial aspects of it.

wonder why this has been the case ?

Ahh....
I forgot, you already provided the answer to that

Some people "Tap out" when it gets too technical and when they have no scientifically sound response.

but maybe you just have realized the fault in your little drawing in the meantime.

There is a difference between arguing and technical demonstration.

There is no fault in the drawing. You just showed that you are not quite sure what point to "attack from" Nothing is wrong with the diagram and its context. Unless you want to draw another one? yeah that would be good.

[avatar]

Is the response in the mercury Inertial hydraulics suspension only derived from the wheel load?

Ooh.

Decelleration due to Aero drag when lifting throttle at full speed....

...doesn't that provide significant braking purely from Aero, which, other than he wheels and brake duct gubbins is *all* acting on the unsprung car, not the wheels.

I don't know the figures for Aero braking on an F1 car, but if the system activated are or below the possible force from Aero braking, it should probably be illegal.

Add to that the DRS disengagement adding back a load of drag back (thus decelleration force not applied at the wheel) at the point of breaking, and I can't see it being justified.

What do you reckon?

It depends where the CoG is in relation to the Centre of pressure for the car.
Any drag force will have a couple with the statics and dynamics properties of the car.
Another thing to sonsider is drag is proportional to velocity and the drag coefficient of the car. At what point would the forces balance to reduce the couple

you need actual data an this is a problem that would be considered during the design of the car

Wikipedia is suggesting Martin Brundle from a few years ago stating 1G for standard Aero drag braking effect, but I can't find any figures for G-force attributed to DRS disengaging (I.e.flap closing).

Basically I think you're saying that the system would have to remain inactive at 1G plus any additional force from DRS disengaging.

I'm not sure you can remove the Aero braking from the equation.
Ignoring DRS due to lack of figures, if say Max braking force is 6G, 1G of that will be due to drag.

How do you convince the FIA that the system was only activated by the other 5G caused by braking force at the wheels and not at all affected by the 1G aero braking force applied to the sprung car?

In simplistic terms you could attribute 1/6th of the force activating the system and affecting the suspension to drag induced deceleration.

I agree it's still a judgement call on the part of the FIA, but given their form on clever suspension control like the Lotus system and the TMD, I fear the worst!

(btw, how's this device doing against the deadzone/ f-duct in terms of the "longest pre launch discussion ever" award)