Marussia MR01 Cosworth

[gridwalker]

£3,000,000 will also buy you a lot of hardware from these guys, who I happen to know were the suppliers of Marussia's existing CFD systems : http://ocf.co.uk/

[czt]

Really for finding 1 second in aero you do not need 30 engineers. Just a couple of engineers, a couple of cad designers, and a bunch of fitters. All the rest you spend in hiring the wt and building the parts of the wt model (if you already have a wt model to start from, with instrumentation)

If only it was that easy...

For 3 million per year I would be looking at adding about 10-12 staff, and funding the fruits of their labour. Even then it wouldn't be easy for this additional resource to produce an extra 1 second over the course of the season.

[ESPImperium]

Lower teams can gain a second with €3 million spent wisely in R&D. Marianne Hinson said for the CT01 they have focused on 3 or 4 areas in detail to get gains that they think are easily got.

What would you have, Red Bull style sidepods that can gain 7 or 8 tenths or a KERS system that can give you 4 tenths for the same money. The KERS units themselvs dont cost that much, its the specialist staffing cost that is where the money is. And if 70% of the KERS money is down to staffing, id rather spend 70% of 3 million on R&D costs and spend 30% of the €3m on labour costs. For 7 tenths at Red Bull they mau have to spend €30m, so for 4 tenths, €3m is a no brainer, buy for a small team €3m can be spent better else where, really focusing on a specific area.

There once was a reason Patrick Head spent 90% of the time on the pre race grid down the tail end, he ssaid he gained more insperation from seeing something done really well and in detail than something done by the top teams that was just done well. Top teams cover the macro well, the lower teams do the micro well in other words.

The top teams have 10 areas done to a good standard, the lower teams may have 3 or 4 areas done to a satisfactory level, another 2 or 3 done to a level above that, however they have another 3 or 4 areas done to a really high standard. The top teams have less satisfactory areas, they have those areas developed to a higher standard than that.

If i found that by spending €3m on a satisfactory area would bring it into a really high level, and gain 7 or 8 tenths, id spend it.

Yes KERS will give teams a good boost into a DRS zone, but if the Marussia car is developed to the level that it is strong enough in the corners to draw away from a KERS car, the KERS car just simply wont overtake, even on the longest straights as it dosnt have the performance in the corners. An extra 10kmh arround a corner is worth more than an extra 10kmhon the straight stuff, even at Spa or Canada, there is more time to find on the corners than on Kemmel. Monza is the exception tho, however an extra 10kmh carry into Ascari or Parabolica will also generate laptime.

This argument will gather, i know, but i know that Marussia spending money on aero and mechanichal improvement now will see an even larger performance gain when KERS is bolted in.

[Trocola]

Getting a handle on set up and provide massive gains as well. When HRT brought in Christian Klien they made up to 0.5 of a second through set up gains during free practice. For a new team having no KERS can be a good thing; work on set up rather than fixing KERS gremlins. Plus, is there a KERS system that works with the Cosworth engine? AFAIK no-one that uses Cossehs use KERS.

Williams had in 2011 a Cosworth engine and KERS. I think that's the one HRT are buying.


Trocola

[350matt]

To add weight to the argument bear in mind that Red bull had a Kers 'lite' system approx 1/2 to 2/3rds of the Mclaren system


fastest car over a lap wasn't the Mclaren was it ( well except maybe right at the end of the season)

Spend the money on the aero and the car will go quicker, especially as the smaller teams have to pick and choose where to spend the resource, if you need to engineer a KERS system thats men pulled off suspension, cooling and other mechanical design where the team is probably streteched already

also $3m is a big chunk of their budget

how much do you think last years car cost Marussia? I'd be suprised if it was double figures (in numbers of millions)

[ESPImperium]

Virgin Racing in 2010 was to be the €40m boiler bunny for the new cost cut F1, they spent 20% more than that Wirth said. Last year they were rumored to be funded to the value of €65m, and that was slightly short, as by my estimation they would need at least €72m going on inflationry constraints and relocation of the Virgin staff from London and paying off Nick Wirth, as well as buying the F1 arm of Wirth Research and transfering his guys to Marussia F1.

Marussia this year are rumored to have a €75m to €78m budget with more on tap if they need it.

Williams and Sauber each spent arround €100m last year, Force India and Toro Rosso spent just under €120m and Team Lotus (now Caterham) spent arround €90m. This year, Williams and Sauber will increas spending slightly, posibly to the €110m mark, Force India could spend €170m if they wish, but they have €50m to spend on facilities whitch is more benificial in the long term. Toro Rosso have a rumored €150m this year, but they are also spending on facilities as well at present, they have 3 new builgings at Faenza being built at a cost of €30m. Caterham id recon will spend arround the €100m mark this year.

From Spanish news, it seems that Hispania have a sizeable chunk to spend as well, as 2010 saw them spend €33m, last year was €48m, so id recon they will be at the €65m to €70m area.

However, i think its all down to how many staff you have, Marussia have said via their Consultant Pat Symmonds 170, Caterham have 240. Williams and Sauber have over 300, Toro Roso has 320 and Force India has arround the 320 mark as well. Hispania is un known, but some have suggested its arround the 200 mark, plus or minus 10% either way.

I think if Marussia had an extra 50 to 70 bodies, they will start to make more inroads quickly, as brain power is more of a comodity than money sometimes. The more brains floating arround the better the solution.

[mith]

Do you have any estimation of those figures for the other teams by any chance?

[ESPImperium]

Lotus: €180m - 385 to 415 people
Mercedes: €320m - 550 people (Budget dosnt include MBHPP, but they have arround 600 staff outside the 550 that operate Mercedes, MBHPP budget is arround €150m)
Ferarri: €320m - 900 people
Red Bull: €325m - 600 people (however have an additional 50 to 70 are in Red Bull Technoilogy, with a budget of $50m)
McLaren: €280m - 500 people (However they have a total of 3200 employees accross McLaren, budgets outside of McLaren F1 activities are hard to come by, however the MP4-12C project is costing $850m over 7 years, and thats the only other one thats out there)

[Mr.S]

What source do you have for all this?? I think it's all made up. Did not they have 200 Million Budget?? How can it be 320 Million euros for Benz???

I heard they are not spending more than 200 Million through various sites. Post your link,source for all this or Dont put figures our of Thin Air.

Edite - I heard various Team Principle say that Lotus & Mercedes have around 500 odd number of staff. I dont buy these numbers.

[wesley123]

These numbers are never correct because f1 teams dont hand out the numbers.
Mercedes increased their budget as well as workforce to bring on the fight, if that pays off is a whole different chapter.

I certainly wouldnt doubt ESP's info and/or source and they seem fairly correct to me. However I do not fully understand the 900 people at Ferrari, although these are most likely the engine guys included.

[mith]

Thank you. Those numbers, true or not, were interesting to watch.

[Florio]

In regards to the aero/KERS debate Marussia should simply learn to walk before they run.

[Pierce89]

In regards to the aero/KERS debate Marussia should simply learn to walk before they run.

yes but if they outqualify anyone, they'll be swamped on the start by KERS cars, but I do agree when you're as far down as they are, the money is better spent on performance for the whole lap rather than 6 seconds of boost

[Coefficient]

These numbers are never correct because f1 teams dont hand out the numbers.
Mercedes increased their budget as well as workforce to bring on the fight, if that pays off is a whole different chapter.

I certainly wouldnt doubt ESP's info and/or source and they seem fairly correct to me. However I do not fully understand the 900 people at Ferrari, although these are most likely the engine guys included.

Anyone can write to Companies House and request a full set of accounts for any company in the country, F1 Teams included, that's a fact.

[Gridlock]

Anyone can write to Companies House and request a full set of accounts for any company in the country, F1 Teams included, that's a fact.

http://Www.levelbusiness.com

Knock yourself out