Scuderia Ferrari 2012

[Froggolo]

First off, Byrne has been working on the car & word was he made/designed a new floor. Now other rumors popped up that suggested it was this & that, but that doesn't take away from the fact they ran a new floor & diffuser. Did Byrne make it? I don't know. Don't much care. But don't sit here and act like there was no difference in the floors that were ran. If you would take the time to compare them, you will see that distinctly different floors were used during testing.


@ringo Brian is that you?

hello Crucial

i didnt make the statement there were no differences in the floors they used,
i simply said that what we saw was quite conventional,
and nothing revolutionary as advertised.

i know they are trying many solutions and many many parts are going to be tested,
but honestly i didn't see any revolutionary concept,
except the pull rod on front

the exhausts solution was very interesting (v 1.0) but quite surely
the track didn't match the cfd numbers
and this is what i blame to Ferrari.
Other teams presented and evolved solutions what kept the original concept,
meaning that track is basically respecting their calculations,
while Ferrari had to make a big step back with their exhaust system.
I am very afraid that again there aren't correlations with cfd and wind tunnel
as if 2011 didn't taught anything to them:(

p.s. i hope i am wrong!

[PlatinumZealot]

Heads are gonna roll. For sure! I hope Fry can keep his! He better build that Sauber exhaust as fast as he can! That means new pods, new floor, new headers and new diffuser! It took RedBull one month to do it according to Horner.

Rumours of Massa being sacked? Whoa! Were they inspired by what Caterham did to Trulli? haha.

[lombers]

the exhausts solution was very interesting (v 1.0) but quite surely
the track didn't match the cfd numbers
and this is what i blame to Ferrari.
Other teams presented and evolved solutions what kept the original concept,
meaning that track is basically respecting their calculations,
while Ferrari had to make a big step back with their exhaust system.
I am very afraid that again there aren't correlations with cfd and wind tunnel
as if 2011 didn't taught anything to them:(

Not all teams ran with their original concepts, take a look at RBR for instance. Some will argue that it was in the pipeline all along but we will never really know. The two days of testing that they ran their so called "new car" they seemed to have a lot of issues so I'm not even convinced they are in a positive position.

The talk about correlation with cfd and wind tunnel is based on previous years, we have no factual proof that they are suffering from the same issue this year. What we also don't know is their reasoning behind moving away from their initial exhaust design.

I do however find it odd that Fry made those comments in the media, and I have to say it seems unclear whether this is true or if there is some sand bagging at play when you consider the conflicting reports that are circulating.

If they haven't learnt from their mistakes in previous years then there is no one left to blame.

[Chuckjr]

I posed the Byrne floor proof questions earlier. No one responded. That basically said, to me at least, there was no proof of any Byrne floor used for certain. There also seems no hard proof surfacing that this floor ever or ever will exist.

In my opinion...
All this Ferrari rumor mongering is sounding to me like Ferrari is playing coy and acting lost - totally unawares. They are using this strategy to keep everyone away and imagine they just sat around and pulled their pudd since July 2011 when they stopped concentrated development on the 150 and started the 2012. The notion that two wind tunnels, nearly endless budget, multiple educated/experienced teams of dngineers (im sure most top of their class grads) paid handsomely working 24/7 for nearly 6 months actually coming to the track as discombobulated as they've been made out to be? Sorry. I don't buy that. I think it's going exactly how they wanted it to go. I think somebody here mentioned the pit team was all smiles as well as drivers. I just don't think all of the team would fake that.

Stepping off the tuna can now. =D>

[radosav]

I posed the Byrne floor proof questions earlier. No one responded. That basically said, to me at least, there was no proof of any Byrne floor used for certain. There also seems no hard proof surfacing that this floor ever or ever will exist.

In my opinion...
All this Ferrari rumor mongering is sounding to me like Ferrari is playing coy and acting lost - totally unawares. They are using this strategy to keep everyone away and imagine they just sat around and pulled their pudd since July 2011 when they stopped concentrated development on the 150 and started the 2012. The notion that two wind tunnels, nearly endless budget, multiple educated/experienced teams of dngineers (im sure most top of their class grads) paid handsomely working 24/7 for nearly 6 months actually coming to the track as discombobulated as they've been made out to be? Sorry. I don't buy that. I think it's going exactly how they wanted it to go. I think somebody here mentioned the pit team was all smiles as well as drivers. I just don't think all of the team would fake that.

Stepping off the tuna can now. =D>

actually, the car isn't so bad as they say, it is worse. after they upgrade it will be third fastest,after Mclaren and Bulls, and fight for fifth place in race. why would they throwing car through corners in those 12 days of test just to pretend that car is unbalanced

[Hail22]

Off Topic: Pirelli has arrived in Melbourne and all containers are being held in customs it will take 4-5 days to clear hence why they're so early!(excitement anyone?).


On Topic: I feel that Macca and Ferrari just like they changed exhausts positions will come to Melbourne with a modified Chassis, remember Ferrari testing two chassis' one passed...but the other one failed yet passed once more layers of carbon was added to the side structure.

My somewhat mind tells me Ferrari will be coming to Melbourne with the phase 2 chassis, don't ridicule me this is a viewpoint from the technical aspect of the front flo-vis...it was like they were gathering data for upgrade parts rather than parts they had on the car, similar to the FW and the RD.

There was a air vent/slot under the lower wishbone of the Ferrari which was made of aluminium which suggests a heat outlet for possibly hydraulics?

I think the spirit of this thread has been hijacked by a lot of negativity, so can we talk about the technical aspects instead of screaming out "Dead Duck", "Dud" etc.

[Redragon]

Last year we were screaming for a car to perform well on 1 lap or heat the tyres from start.

I am not an expert but my feeling after these days of testing is that Ferrari has it now. Maybe there is some degradation to correct still but I prefer to be on pole and play with strategy that to be fifth and catch up.

Also most of us we were asking for agressive approach on design and not being conservative. And it is what they have done. So blame the team for it = blame on us.

I have got a feeling that the car might not be a kind baby at first but can give us the championship at the end.


Out of context, Alonso with an enginenier where observing and recording Redbull on Friday. So I wonder if there is some political argument about blowing exhausts from renault engine.

[bhall]

Respectfully, we do know all of that stuff.

Red Bull and Sauber have shown with their updated exhausts that outboard exhausts are not nearly as "radical" for this year as we thought was the case when the F2012 was launched. They're utilizing the same underlying philosophy with their cars as is (was) being used on the F2012. The only difference is that they chose simpler, more elegant paths. And, as far as I know, the simplest solution is nearly always the best solution.

You don't have to listen to any comments from the team, or even look at the time sheets, to know that Ferrari is struggling mightily with its exhaust implementation. That bodywork was adjusted on-the-fly almost daily throughout the tests as the team attempted to come to some kind of understanding of what's going on.

I think it's very fair to assume that if they understood the real-world ramifications of their design decisions based on CFD and wind tunnel assessments, not only would they have not made so many adjustments during the tests, they would have been prepared for any adjustments by having all of the necessary tools available to carry them out. Instead, they had to make due with haphazard cuts to the exhaust housings and to the floor. This absolutely points to continued correlation problems.

While I applaud Ferrari for at least having the courage to attempt bold change, bold change in and of itself does not equal success. Lotus/Renault are a perfect example of this. Last year's Renault R31 is as close to a carbon copy of the F10 as is possible without industrial espionage (and no, I'm not making any accusations; I'm just emphasizing a point). This was a dramatic shift from their previous design philosophy as implemented in their 2009 and 2010 cars. It was far simpler, and that was the correct move. They just lost the plot with a "radical" exhaust solution. (Sound familiar?)

This year, by all accounts, Lotus has had a great winter, and they've done so by apparently just further refining tried-and-true contemporary Formula 1 concepts. With such discipline, they have effectively assumed the mantle once held by Ferrari as professional refiners - with a car that's ironically still derivative of the F10. This used to be Ferrari's strength.

(Imagine how quick the "conventional" F10 and 150 Italia would have been had they not been hampered by correlation issues. Even crippled, they were always fast enough to contend, and that was especially true of F10.)

I've changed my avatar back to its normal glory so that people don't mistake my words for Ferrari - and praise for Red Bull - as nothing more than rampant "fanboyism" run amok. I want to see Ferrari succeed, but I highly doubt it happens this year. And I'm beginning to think it will never happen with Stefano Domenicali at the helm. But that's a conversation for another time.

Sorry for the essay-length post.

[Pierce89]

Really, look through this thread and elsewhere for my comments on the F2012. I've been consistently objective, with a slant toward very measured optimism, up until the last couple of days.

My suggested impetus for Ferrari's return to the supposedly abandoned outboard exhausts is definitely nothing more than speculation. However, I do think that everything added up does point to a lack of discipline that I find quite discomforting.

(I just wanted to follow up on the other poster's comment. I'll move further thoughts of this nature to the Ferrari zoo.)

Actually you have been objective to a point, but then, you all of a sudden, changed your mind,and it became all doom and gloom. I noticed it all of a sudden. It was like somebody pissed in your Wheaties.

But you once mentioned having lived in Georgia, so, I forgive you for pissing in my Ferrari Wheaties.

Edit: Is it weird, that after I post, I go back and edit to change grammatical errors or spelling? It seems most people don't.

[bhall]

Georgia born and raised.

And it's not so much that I suddenly changed my mind as it is that I finally lent words to thoughts I've held the entire time. For one thing, I think only a fool would cement any sort of judgment by putting into words an assessment of performance based on initial testing alone. But, I've seen enough now that I'm willing to say exactly what I'm thinking.

"If it looks fast, then it is fast." There's a reason why that saying persists despite its superficial nature.

F2012 has never looked fast.

(And I certainly hope it's not weird to edit grammatical errors after you've made a post, because I do it all the time. I'll often make style edits, too. I have OCD, so that's my excuse. I even text in complete sentences.)

[Pierce89]

Georgia born and raised.

And it's not so much that I suddenly changed my mind as it is that I finally lent words to thoughts I've held the entire time. For one thing, I think only a fool would cement any sort of judgment by putting into words an assessment of performance based on initial testing alone. But, I've seen enough now that I'm willing to say exactly what I'm thinking.

"If it looks fast, then it is fast." There's a reason why that saying persists despite its superficial nature.

F2012 has never looked fast.

(And I certainly hope it's not weird to edit grammatical errors after you've made a post, because I do it all the time. I'll often make style edits, too. I have OCD, so that's my excuse. I even text in complete sentences.)

I've seen all the same things, but then, when I look at the lap-times it never seems anywhere near as bad as people are making it out.
Oh well, I'm probably way too optimistic, but as bad as the 09 Renault was Alonso was able to drag some good finishes out of it and I don't think Ferrari are in anything like that kind of trouble.

[f1316]

Georgia born and raised.

And it's not so much that I suddenly changed my mind as it is that I finally lent words to thoughts I've held the entire time. For one thing, I think only a fool would cement any sort of judgment by putting into words an assessment of performance based on initial testing alone. But, I've seen enough now that I'm willing to say exactly what I'm thinking.

"If it looks fast, then it is fast." There's a reason why that saying persists despite its superficial nature.

F2012 has never looked fast.

(And I certainly hope it's not weird to edit grammatical errors after you've made a post, because I do it all the time. I'll often make style edits, too. I have OCD, so that's my excuse. I even text in complete sentences.)

I've seen all the same things, but then, when I look at the lap-times it never seems anywhere near as bad as people are making it out.
Oh well, I'm probably way too optimistic, but as bad as the 09 Renault was Alonso was able to drag some good finishes out of it and I don't think Ferrari are in anything like that kind of trouble.

This is very much my line of thought: I find it very hard to ignore the fact that the team are saying they don't expect even a podium, but I can't see too much from the lap times that makes the Ferrari significantly slower than its competitors, so I remain optimistic.

I do remember seeing Ferraris circa 97-99 looking much harder to drive than the competing (Newey designed) McLarens, and yet Schumacher was able to wring performance out of them - but I'm aware that we're talking about a different era with fewer competitive cars. Still, BBC analysis seems to indicate the Ferrari is fast over one lap - we know Alonso's style in his championship years was to throw the car into a corner - so, again, I cannot completely relinquish my optimism. Melbourne is not Barcelona, don't forget, so perhaps aero deficiency is not such a big loss there.

Perhaps this is (slightly) off topic, but I also wonder how much performance is related to the exhausts this year - obviously a significant amount or the teams wouldn't be so desperate to exploit it. But with the engine maps being changed, surely it must also be significantly reduced? Again - and this is the on topic part - that leads me to wonder if having a less optimised exhaust layout is something that will cost the Ferrari a few tenths, which can be overcome in other areas (such as the driver's ability), as opposed to the whole second they were missing at Melbourne last year.

[banibhusan]

I read somewhere that the teams are able to recover 25% of the lost down force by blowing diffuser/floor. Not sure how far it's true.

And the next we heard, according to Fry, that the Ferrari is fast, but the car has a very narrow performance window and when conditions change there is a radical shift in performance. Though we still dunno all the variables in the equation. How much will it affect the performance over long run, that we will see in Melbourne.

I just hope they don't come back and say that "we are shifting all our focus to 2013". If they do, then it would be thrice in a span of 4 years which would be really sad.

[raymondu999]

That does concur with some opinions that the Ferrari actually has core pace in it; but that pace is very hard to unlock - either due to setup concerns or due to needing a specific driving style to actually get the best out of it.

[Gerhard Berger]

Heads are gonna roll. For sure! I hope Fry can keep his! He better build that Sauber exhaust as fast as he can! That means new pods, new floor, new headers and new diffuser! It took RedBull one month to do it according to Horner.

Rumours of Massa being sacked? Whoa! Were they inspired by what Caterham did to Trulli? haha.

Fry hasn't even had the technical director role for a year, so i don't think he would get sacked. It might well be the end for Domenicalli though and maybe Tombazis too.