Embarrassment for Hamilton? The Reborn Button...

[lebesset]

Isn´t it funny how Button shines when Hamilton endures the worst year of his career?
And Button arguably his best? (performance wise)

Still managed to win as many races as Button. And out of all the three top teams, he was the closest one to their respective teammate.

And when you consider that everytime Hamilton was not involved in any incidents he finished ahead of Button.

Canada? Hamilton looked like he was running in the dry while everyone was running in the wet.
China? Stellar move into T1.
Turkey? Just like 2010, Hamilton is victorious in battles with his teammate.

Just imagine what he will do when he is not enduring his worst ever year in F1.

I´m tipping Hamilton for the title this year. And that is coming from an Alonso fan.
Still can´t deny him being the fastest driver since Senna.

+1

he has enough talent to end up the best since jim clark !!!!!
and I'm a button fan as well !
but given a competitive car hamilton is clearly faster than anyone else , as alonso said the only one capable of winning the championship without the best car

[Ral]

There is an interesting for-pay article on autosport.com by Mark Hughes about driving styles. There is some really interesting information there about the differences between Hamilton and Button.

The conclusion if you want to call it that, is that Hamilton's preference for oversteer, comes from a comparative (to Button) lack of sensitivity, which makes it easier for him to drive around imbalances in the car, be they setup or externally induced. Which makes it a easier for him to set fast times again and again regardless of circumstances.

In it, one example is highlighted of the 2010 Bahrain race where during qualifying a wind change affected the rear end stability of the car which, it is claimed, felt like sudden imbalance to Button but wasn't felt at all by Hamilton as he would normally drive into the same corner with the back stepping out anyway. McLaren's Paddy Lowe confirmed that both cars had been affected the same way, yet Button's time was a lot slower and Hamilton's wasn't affected at all.

Of course, to say Hamilton is therefore insensitive to the change, is oversimplifying a bit I think. He must have felt it, or he would have attacked the same corner with the exact same vigour and have had more oversteer than before (and therefore more than what was desirable).

Anyway, with a car that he can set up to his liking, if nothing else Button has shown he can challenge anyone on the grid. Including Hamilton. Although he can not influence external factors, so all else being equal if Hamilton can keep himself under control, over a season I would give it to Hamilton

[Nando]

Kubica is another great example at a good driver.

Suzuka, Monaco and SPA are considered driver tracks. On those tracks the driver shines through more then at other tracks which are more dependent on what the car can do.

In all those three he managed to put it on the first or second row.
In a bloody Renault

[Ral]

In the same article, it says Kubica apparently has the same understeery preferences as Button. I would not have guessed that in a million years. I always thought he was a hustler, like Hamilton or Alonso.

[Nando]

Surely the author must mean when the car let´s go?
I doubt any driver would want understeer in any shape or form.

[PlatinumZealot]

How about we base it from GP2 forward?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMCmrsahWFs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH7Kk37-53Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mzekijTZno

There are 2 more videos like this, all with different overtakes from Hamilton alone.

I love these videos. You can sorta just bludgeon people over the head with 'em.

The conclusion if you want to call it that, is that Hamilton's preference for oversteer, comes from a comparative (to Button) lack of sensitivity, which makes it easier for him to drive around imbalances in the car, be they setup or externally induced. Which makes it a easier for him to set fast times again and again regardless of circumstances.

I disagree with Hughes here. I know he is a big Hamilton supporter but he got it wrong here methinks.
The bold words are contradictory because over-steer is a form of instability in a rear wheel drive car and if you are an insensitive driver you will never be good at racing an over-steering car. I think Button's intolerance of in balance makes him need to be more sensitive to other things, like tyres and wind direction, and track surface. Hamilton is a sensitive driver, because he can balance the car, but he is more tolerant.

In my opinion I think Hamilton is not insensitive but more tolerant. Button is sensitive to external factors which may stem from his intolerance of imbalance.

[ringo]

Anyway, with a car that he can set up to his liking, if nothing else Button has shown he can challenge anyone on the grid. Including Hamilton. Although he can not influence external factors, so all else being equal if Hamilton can keep himself under control, over a season I would give it to Hamilton

I dont think he can challenge hamilton on pace on the same condition of tyres, no matter what setup he chooses. We never got a situation with him chasing then overtaking hamilton on pace last year, especially on stints where the tyres are in similar condition for both drivers.
Pace is pace, and as bernie says Hamilton is simply faster and i would expect him to come out on top if he is cleaner this year; regardless of how perfect button can setup up the car.

Mclaren need only have a car that is within reach of the redbulls and they need only have a pitwall that doesn't cock up the strategy like they did in Hungary last year, which should have been a clear win for Hamilton.

[beelsebob]

You can laugh all you want but I still think Senna crashed -almost- never when he attempted overtakes (contrary to Hamilton). 90 was deliberate.

But please do as you say and keep busy providing counter examples, I'll check back when you are done.

I'd add the laughing face smiley but there isn't really any point is there?

Sure... how about... pretty much every time he tried to overtake Nigel Mansel...

Noting here, that I'm certainly not trying to show that Senna wasn't a great overtaker... But then, as has just been shown in this thread, Hamilton is a great overtaker too, even if he did just have a rusty season.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

How many opportunities did Senna get to overtake? Compared to say Hamilton and Button.

I ask because I believe that Senna had far less oppurtunites, although I could be wrong. Especially with cars that had more or less the same performance levels, now that really didnt happen often back in the 80s. So when faced with a situation back then that invariably almost never occured, how can we compare to that of now which occurs 50% of the time in 19 GP?


There really can be no comparisons with Senna and Hamilton then Prost and Button.
Own era, with each their own unique qualities.

If Hamilton can avoid controversy, He will probably beat Button. Saying that, if Button can work on his one lap pace and make ground up, I reckon he can push Hamilton to breaking point, and thus further embarrassment. Although, I'm scratching my head...is it so embarrassing to be beaten by Button?

[beelsebob]

How many opportunities did Senna get to overtake? Compared to say Hamilton and Button.

I ask because I believe that Senna had far less oppurtunites, although I could be wrong. Especially with cars that had more or less the same performance levels, now that really didnt happen often back in the 80s. So when faced with a situation back then that invariably almost never occured, how can we compare to that of now which occurs 50% of the time in 19 GP?


There really can be no comparisons with Senna and Hamilton then Prost and Button.
Own era, with each their own unique qualities.

If Hamilton can avoid controversy, He will probably beat Button. Saying that, if Button can work on his one lap pace and make ground up, I reckon he can push Hamilton to breaking point, and thus further embarrassment. Although, I'm scratching my head...is it so embarrassing to be beaten by Button?

Well said – the only thing I can really add to that is that originally any comparison between Hamilton and Senna was purely a very thin veil... No one was really trying to compare exact events, but instead just personality. Alonso is a driver who thinks about his races, Hamilton is a driver who's hot headed and will go for a win no matter what. The same could be said of Prost and Senna respectively. Hamilton and Alonso argued a lot... so did Senna and Prost. As far as I'm concerned, that's about as far as the comparison goes (even if it is fun to think about things like Newey coming along, designing a fiendishly fast car, and a young upstart beating them both in it )

[raymondu999]

I always thought Hamilton-Alonso was a better comparison to Senna-Prost than Hamilton-Button.

I think personally Hamilton is probably a lot more like Gilles Villeneuve than Senna in particular to be honest. And some have even said Ronnie Peterson. Most people just reference Senna (subconsciously) because Hamilton is a "bit" - understatement of the century there! - of a Senna fan himself.

[lebesset]

it is interesting to note that when it comes to overtaking you could argue about which of them will be helped most by the new clarification of the rules

hamilton goes for the overtake given any opening ; he has been severely disadvantaged by the fact that certain drivers were allowed to shut the door on him ; this is a comparatively recent syndrome , in years past it didn't happen because somebody ended up getting killed ; provided the stewards apply the rules he should be a big gainer

button , on the other hand , has had a much more measured approach , looked for a clear chance before he went for the overtake , and was prepared for the other driver to do the wrong thing ; so pretty rare for him to get tangled up hence his high finish rate ; but this year he will be able to take a more aggressive approach without sacrificing his race

will be interesting to see what happens

[Nando]

Mclaren need only have a car that is within reach of the redbulls and they need only have a pitwall that doesn't cock up the strategy like they did in Hungary last year, which should have been a clear win for Hamilton.

Anyone remember how Hamilton was the only guy not going off in T2?

He fooled Vettel and Button several times in T2, both went wide on a number of occasions.

[Nando]

Saying that, if Button can work on his one lap pace and make ground up,

This i think is a bit of a dream. Button is by nature slower then Hamilton.

In fact, i would go so far to say that if you gave every driver an identical car to do a lap or two in.
Hamilton would beat them all, with Vettel close second.

But as far as the best driver on the grid? Alonso, you don´t need to think twice about that one. Truly exceptional driver that shows he´s the best on the grid even though the car isn´t.

[Pierce89]

Isn´t it funny how Button shines when Hamilton endures the worst year of his career?
And Button arguably his best? (performance wise)

Still managed to win as many races as Button. And out of all the three top teams, he was the closest one to their respective teammate.

And when you consider that everytime Hamilton was not involved in any incidents he finished ahead of Button.

Canada? Hamilton looked like he was running in the dry while everyone was running in the wet.
China? Stellar move into T1.
Turkey? Just like 2010, Hamilton is victorious in battles with his teammate.

Just imagine what he will do when he is not enduring his worst ever year in F1.

I´m tipping Hamilton for the title this year. And that is coming from an Alonso fan.
Still can´t deny him being the fastest driver since Senna.

+1

he has enough talent to end up the best since jim clark !!!!!
and I'm a button fan as well !
but given a competitive car hamilton is clearly faster than anyone else , as alonso said the only one capable of winning the championship without the best car

In an even car AND TEAM alonso would beat Hamilton!
There that should stir things up a bit.