Embarrassment for Hamilton? The Reborn Button...

[banibhusan]

In terms of outright pace (be it a single lap or over a race), guys like Hamilton and Raikkonen are extremely good. No second thoughts about it. You can probably say monsters on track. Only thing they know is how to go blindingly fast on each lap. But they lack consistency in most cases for whatever reasons, be it reliability or mistakes.

Whereas guys like Alonso, Vettel and Schumy are all pretty fast drivers and exceptionally consistent. That's why they have always had a clear edge over the rest of the field.

If Hamilton could manage that magnetic attraction his car had towards the Ferrari of Massa last season, then he could have easily finished ahead of Button.

[lebesset]

Isn´t it funny how Button shines when Hamilton endures the worst year of his career?
And Button arguably his best? (performance wise)

Still managed to win as many races as Button. And out of all the three top teams, he was the closest one to their respective teammate.

And when you consider that everytime Hamilton was not involved in any incidents he finished ahead of Button.

Canada? Hamilton looked like he was running in the dry while everyone was running in the wet.
China? Stellar move into T1.
Turkey? Just like 2010, Hamilton is victorious in battles with his teammate.

Just imagine what he will do when he is not enduring his worst ever year in F1.

I´m tipping Hamilton for the title this year. And that is coming from an Alonso fan.
Still can´t deny him being the fastest driver since Senna.

+1

he has enough talent to end up the best since jim clark !!!!!
and I'm a button fan as well !
but given a competitive car hamilton is clearly faster than anyone else , as alonso said the only one capable of winning the championship without the best car

In an even car AND TEAM alonso would beat Hamilton!
There that should stir things up a bit.

he couldn't even do it when hamilton was a rookie and he was double WDC , he whinged that hamilton got better treatment and the FIA sent an observer [ spanish ] who said alonso got equal treatment

and why did ron dennis fire him from his beloved team ? to keep the better driver ;
if you think dennis would put a driver ahead of his team you would believe that elvis still lives

[lebesset]

In terms of outright pace (be it a single lap or over a race), guys like Hamilton and Raikkonen are extremely good. No second thoughts about it. You can probably say monsters on track. Only thing they know is how to go blindingly fast on each lap. But they lack consistency in most cases for whatever reasons, be it reliability or mistakes.

Whereas guys like Alonso, Vettel and Schumy are all pretty fast drivers and exceptionally consistent. That's why they have always had a clear edge over the rest of the field.

If Hamilton could manage that magnetic attraction his car had towards the Ferrari of Massa last season, then he could have easily finished ahead of Button.

as long as button lost a shed load of points through no fault of his own...as he did

[Pup]

I glad to see that the old truism that a driver is only as good as his last season/race still holds true.

I seem to remember an entire thread here two years ago about how Alonso had lost it and was too crash prone and didn't know how to drive within his limits, etc. Coincidentally, it all came to a head after Monaco, just like with Hamilton. Of course, that was all BS, as is the current perception of Hamilton. They're both remarkably talented, and very complete drivers.

If you put Alonso, or Schumi, or Vettel, or pretty much any other driver in an almost competitive car, they will push the limit and make more mistakes just like Hamilton did last year, just like Alonso did the year before, and just like Schumi did in his later years at Ferrari. Put them in a car that's got a half second on the field, and unsurprisingly they will be praised as cool, methodical, consistent drivers.

Actually, the only driver who I think seems to be immune to ACCS (Almost Competitive Car Syndrome) is Mr. Kimi.

[banibhusan]

It's not only the last season that matters. Statistics speak a lot about how good a driver really is. Everyone here understands that Hamilton is an exceptional talent and he just had a bad season in 2011. That doesn't say he has lost it. The comparison here I guess is between their approach towards racing at different points of their career.

@Lebesset

Button lost shed load of points through no fault of his own?? In 2011?? Man he just had two DNF's, barely set a foot wrong and performed more consistently. Hamilton had a incredibly huge number of crashes and penalties for his own mistakes.

[lebesset]

It's not only the last season that matters. Statistics speak a lot about how good a driver really is. Everyone here understands that Hamilton is an exceptional talent and he just had a bad season in 2011. That doesn't say he has lost it. The comparison here I guess is between their approach towards racing at different points of their career.

@Lebesset

Button lost shed load of points through no fault of his own?? In 2011?? Man he just had two DNF's, barely set a foot wrong and performed more consistently. Hamilton had a incredibly huge number of crashes and penalties for his own mistakes.

button probably lost 25-30 points in those two races ; so to finish ahead hamilton would have need to win three more races istead of 3 DNF's...I just don't see it with the form the red bulls showed

[beelsebob]

It's not only the last season that matters. Statistics speak a lot about how good a driver really is. Everyone here understands that Hamilton is an exceptional talent and he just had a bad season in 2011. That doesn't say he has lost it. The comparison here I guess is between their approach towards racing at different points of their career.

@Lebesset

Button lost shed load of points through no fault of his own?? In 2011?? Man he just had two DNF's, barely set a foot wrong and performed more consistently. Hamilton had a incredibly huge number of crashes and penalties for his own mistakes.

button probably lost 25-30 points in those two races ; so to finish ahead hamilton would have need to win three more races istead of 3 DNF's...I just don't see it with the form the red bulls showed

Realistically, a win in Spa, would have gained him 25 pts, and lost Jenson 3 A win in Canada would have gained him 25, and lost Jenson 7; Second in India would have gained him 12, and lost Jenson 3.

That's enough to make up the difference. It's all fantasy though.

[Nando]

I glad to see that the old truism that a driver is only as good as his last season/race still holds true.

I seem to remember an entire thread here two years ago about how Alonso had lost it and was too crash prone and didn't know how to drive within his limits, etc. Coincidentally, it all came to a head after Monaco, just like with Hamilton. Of course, that was all BS, as is the current perception of Hamilton. They're both remarkably talented, and very complete drivers.

If you put Alonso, or Schumi, or Vettel, or pretty much any other driver in an almost competitive car, they will push the limit and make more mistakes just like Hamilton did last year, just like Alonso did the year before, and just like Schumi did in his later years at Ferrari. Put them in a car that's got a half second on the field, and unsurprisingly they will be praised as cool, methodical, consistent drivers.

Actually, the only driver who I think seems to be immune to ACCS (Almost Competitive Car Syndrome) is Mr. Kimi.

Could not agree more!

Except for one thing... when you mentioned Kimi..
What did he do in 08? Could not take on Massa so he is in the same folder as the ones you mentioned.

[PlatinumZealot]

Massa had him under his thumb for two years. Granted, Massa was highly rated before 2010.

[Nando]

Massa had him under his thumb for two years. Granted, Massa was highly rated before 2010.

I´ve must have missed that one, when he was with Schumi we knew he was quick but i don´t think anyone really rated him highly as some other drivers.

Then came Kimi and won the championship in his first year, after that though Massa started to shine but it quickly fell apart.

I´m sure the accident sped up the downrise. But i´m hoping to see a Massa fighting for his career next year.

[Ral]

Massa had him under his thumb for two years. Granted, Massa was highly rated before 2010.

Not because of outright speed though. In the words of (again) Mark Hughes:

This was the guy who could still be devastatingly fast, but not every time, who failed to ignite a team waiting to be lead, who could not establish clear leadership over Felipe Massa. He liked the easier-going surface of the team, but the team in turn was waiting for direction. The 2009 car was evolving ever further away from his driving preferences - strong front end, quick and precise direction change - and more towards Massa's. He told them - but only once.
Then Felipe had his accident and Kimi - the driver Ferrari was paying off a year early - became the sole focus for the last few races. "What do you need from the car?" they implored. He told them, and it worked and for those last few races he was consistently superb. "Why didn't you tell us before?" they asked. "I did," he shrugged.

[Richard]

What points did they have at the time of Massa'a accident?

Massa was only in 9 races for his 22 points. At that stage Heiki got 5 points, Kimi had 9 points, Lewis had 10 points.

In those 9 races, Massa finished ahead of his team mate 5 times out of 4.

If those words seem familiar, they were copied from first page of the fanboy ying yang thread. Yes, this sort of conversation was considered off topic for a technical forum .

[PlatinumZealot]

Massa had him under his thumb for two years. Granted, Massa was highly rated before 2010.

Not because of outright speed though. In the words of (again) Mark Hughes:

This was the guy who could still be devastatingly fast, but not every time, who failed to ignite a team waiting to be lead, who could not establish clear leadership over Felipe Massa. He liked the easier-going surface of the team, but the team in turn was waiting for direction. The 2009 car was evolving ever further away from his driving preferences - strong front end, quick and precise direction change - and more towards Massa's. He told them - but only once.
Then Felipe had his accident and Kimi - the driver Ferrari was paying off a year early - became the sole focus for the last few races. "What do you need from the car?" they implored. He told them, and it worked and for those last few races he was consistently superb. "Why didn't you tell us before?" they asked. "I did," he shrugged.

That's just too cotton candy for me. The car wasn't upgraded for that year end. nothing was changed on it..no suspension, nothing. It was all mental for Kimi.

[megz]

What points did they have at the time of Massa'a accident?

Massa was only in 9 races for his 22 points. At that stage Heiki got 5 points, Kimi had 9 points, Lewis had 10 points.

In those 9 races, Massa finished ahead of his team mate 5 times out of 4.

If those words seem familiar, they were copied from first page of the fanboy ying yang thread. Yes, this sort of conversation was considered off topic for a technical forum .

How is that even possible? That's an improper fraction if ever I saw one!

Looking at a half season is a little misleading, if that were the case Button would have famously been the driver champion in 2006 by virtue of outscoring Alonso and Schumacher in the second half of the season.

[PlatinumZealot]

Grosjean is in the lead for FP3... Kimi does not like the power steering.. so lets see how he handles it for Q3!