Embarrassment for Hamilton? The Reborn Button...

[GrizzleBoy]

Lewis was not happy because his car was way off the pace

Really? But was good enough for him to put on pole, and for Button to win a race.

he fluffed his start and the team allowed Vettel to slot in front of him without even having to try/overtake him on the track.

If he pitted 3-4 laps earlier every stint, he would have 8 extra laps to do on his last set of tyres, or face the extra pit stop. Button would have reeled him in by the latter stages.

If a driver is out front, and his team mate behind and they are on similar strategies, its the driver out front that gets the choice as befits his position on track.

Why favour the 2nd driver to leapfrog the first? As the second driver could just use the undercut to the first...that is just not cricket!
Politics my ass.

[.]

I also like when people only respot to two setences out of a post containing many paragraphs and act like they responded to your post and in doing so skirting around the actual context.

We were talking about reasons why Lewis was looking miffed after the race and why you thought he had no right to be.

1.
The pace = car in P1s times.

I said specifically that LEWIS' car was off the pace and that it would have obviously annoyed him somewhat. You want to try and argue that it was at the same pace as Buttons?

Or are you going to next attempt to talk to me about qualifying in pole, and show me that you are unable to distinguish between qualifying setup and how it affects your actual race pace?

2.
I Mentioned that the team choosing to pit him at a time that meant he'd get stuck immediately behind a few slower cars would have annoyed him as their strategy ended up losing him time.

I also mentioned how the strategy for their next pit stops also ended up losing him more time, and subsequently second on the podium without Vettel even having to overtake him.

Vettel is in front of Lewis in the WDC after one race. Reason to be happy about that is what exactly?

We were talking about reasons why Hamilton wouldn't have been looking too happy and imo, those are very valid reasons.

I don't see why you'd like for Hamilton to be all smiles and cheery when there are obvious things to be annoyed about in front of him and frown upon him for not being an actor. I guess certain people are just like that.

Like I said, you don't know what kind of things are happening when the cameras aren't there.

He has a right to be unhappy if that's how he feels and I have much more respect for those who show the truth in their actions than those who try to sell me a facade.

[Shrieker]

Hamilton has lost his speed? Or he just doesn't know to drive on these tyres?

After the race my elder brother said Lewis will never win a world title on pirelli tyres. He might be right and I hope Lewis somehow manages to prove him wrong.

[Pup]

The thing is that there is really no evidence from the race that Hamilton's tires were going off any faster than Jenson's. He complained about them more, but his gap to Button remained pretty consistent even after he started complaining.

I think the McLaren in general doesn't take care of it's tires as well as the RB (at least in this race it didn't), and the difference between Button and Hamilton is mostly that Hamilton is more vocal and panicky when they start to go off.

Which is probably understandable since he had Vettel or Webber breathing down his back and Jenson didn't.

[PlatinumZealot]

Yep he was on the pace. He only slow at the start for some reason.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I also like when people only respot to two setences out of a post containing many paragraphs and act like they responded to your post and in doing so skirting around the actual context.

Oh I could go on, but I think pointing out 2 flaws in your argument would suffice.

Maybe, just maybe, Hamilton wasn't good enough on the day and that's the reason he is unhappy?

[i70q7m7ghw]

I don't see why any experienced watcher of Formula 1 would take any of what a team says at face value when there is no evidence, especially when history teaches us that it's a very backhanded world. Even Red Bull are doing it when they say they underperformed rather than McLaren being dominant. There's no evidence for that either. But, whatever.

Choosing not to believe what Whitmarsh says is my prerogative here. I neither like nor dislike what he said, but it's pretty obvious that some would like to paint me having a completely irrelevant view on that for whatever reason.......

There was team radio during the race to Button that mentioned he had been running in an fuel saving engine mode, I think they called it 'FUEL 4' ?

I suspect the miscalculation was the pace, usually marginal fuel means they went quicker than they expected to. It's usually a more common mistake to make for an anticipated wet race, since it's more difficult to guess what the pace might be. I think this happened to Hamilton in the British GP last year? He was just so much quicker in the damp conditions than they expected. I think Button had a similar situation in the Japanese GP as well (dry race), if I remember correctly he never made it back to the pits after winning the race.

Martin Whitmarsh may have exagerated a little bit, mind games between teams, but I believe they were marginal on fuel, since they always aim to be marginal, what's the point carrying more fuel than you need for the race? Obviously including the fuel needed to make it back to the pits and for the fuel sample.

[lebesset]

Yep he was on the pace. He only slow at the start for some reason.

you mean he WASN'T on the pace , button just ran away from him until he built a lead and eased off ?

button didn't just have him covered , he had EVERYONE covered

[GrizzleBoy]

I also like when people only respot to two setences out of a post containing many paragraphs and act like they responded to your post and in doing so skirting around the actual context.

Oh I could go on, but I think pointing out 2 flaws in your argument would suffice.

Maybe, just maybe, Hamilton wasn't good enough on the day and that's the reason he is unhappy?

So you reply to a post asking you to quote and reply to my whole post instead of one sentence, by quoting once sentence that has the least to do with the root topic of our conversation as possible?

As I said, quoting the whole of my posts instead of what few sentences you think you have the ability to actually rebutt against would have maintained the actual context of our conversation, which was you complaining that Hamilton didn't look happy and me giving reasons why and that I think he has a right to be unhappy if that's how he feels.

You're attempting to make it into something else just to have something to say, to the point where you've now come full circle and have ALSO started to post reasons why Hamilton was looking down instead of just complaining that he was looking down as if it's something people should be judged and slated for doing regardless of whether they have genuine reasons or not.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

So you reply to a post asking you to quote and reply to my whole post instead of one sentence, by quoting once sentence that has the least to do with the root topic of our conversation as possible?

As I said, quoting the whole of my posts instead of what few sentences you think you have the ability to actually rebutt against would have maintained the actual context of our conversation, which was you complaining that Hamilton didn't look happy and me giving reasons why and that I think he has a right to be unhappy if that's how he feels.

You're attempting to make it into something else just to have something to say, to the point where you've now come full circle and have ALSO started to post reasons why Hamilton was looking down instead of just complaining that he was looking down as if it's something people should be judged and slated for doing regardless of whether they have genuine reasons or not.

You say Lewis was off the pace because of his car. I take exception to that.
Lewis had everything at his disposal that Jenson did. Yet you are attempting to justify it with some tangent that the team had something to do with this because of the pit stop strategy.


I think Hamilton is blindingly fast along with a couple of other drivers. I enjoy watching him race too. But to start pulling the political card when he starts getting beat is absolute nonsense I'm afraid.
Regardless of what people like or dislike, Button and Hamilton have to race cars fast. And in Oz, Button did that better. Button has had to play wing man on various occasions too....depends who's leading and what the situation is(ie raining etc)

As for Rosberg, if he was "less radiant" than before, why sign a contract extension at Mercedes?

[GrizzleBoy]

So you reply to a post asking you to quote and reply to my whole post instead of one sentence, by quoting once sentence that has the least to do with the root topic of our conversation as possible?

As I said, quoting the whole of my posts instead of what few sentences you think you have the ability to actually rebutt against would have maintained the actual context of our conversation, which was you complaining that Hamilton didn't look happy and me giving reasons why and that I think he has a right to be unhappy if that's how he feels.

You're attempting to make it into something else just to have something to say, to the point where you've now come full circle and have ALSO started to post reasons why Hamilton was looking down instead of just complaining that he was looking down as if it's something people should be judged and slated for doing regardless of whether they have genuine reasons or not.

You say Lewis was off the pace because of his car. I take exception to that.
Lewis had everything at his disposal that Jenson did. Yet you are attempting to justify it with some tangent that the team had something to do with this because of the pit stop strategy.

What in the world are you talking about? I ask you to stick to the subject, so you start making up stories?

You complained that Hamilton wasn't happy as if he had no right or reason.

I made a statement (as well as other statements) that being off the pace from Jenson was probably one of the reasons he felt annoyed and yes, his car was off the pace.

It could have been that he battered his tyres too much to get into pole.

It could have been that his race setup (which is not going to be identical to Buttons or his own qualifying setup) didn't feel as good to him. The mechanics were adjusting his wing when he pitted so something was obviously not feeling right for him in some way or another.

Regardless of any of that, all I was saying is that being off the pace to challenge Button was a reason why he was not happy.

I also mentioned the fact that the teams pit strategy meant Hamilton lost time hugely on his first stop and a whole position on the next one.

Again simply stating a reason why a person would be a little downhearted about how the race went when you feel they have no right.

I think Hamilton is blindingly fast along with a couple of other drivers. I enjoy watching him race too. But to start pulling the political card when he starts getting beat is absolute nonsense I'm afraid.
Regardless of what people like or dislike, Button and Hamilton have to race cars fast. And in Oz, Button did that better. Button has had to play wing man on various occasions too....depends who's leading and what the situation is(ie raining etc)

Again, could you stop making up stories?

The whole reason I made my first reply to you, was to state reasons why Hamilton looked upset not just after the race, but in general, when you felt he had no right to and that he should just smile for the camera.

I specified that if a person is not happy, then they are just not happy and you don't know what is happening away from the cameras.

At no point did I say he didn't beat Button due to politics so dont attempt to argue with me in such a manner to imply that I did.

As for Rosberg, if he was "less radiant" than before, why sign a contract extension at Mercedes?

Because he wants to continue to race in a competitive team and loves driving?

Why say something like that without even thinking about the obvious answer? Again, you seem to be just "saying stuff" just to have something to say in the majority of your replies.

"less radiant" doesn't mean he wants to stop racing and crawl under a rock, it means that what happened that day and the politics in the team that would lead to that incident seemed to have taken effect on his demeanor.


I'm not sure I'm going to continue, because almost every reply is either deliberately out of context or barely even worth rebutting.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Because he wants to continue to race in a competitive team and loves driving?

He could do that at Lotus, Ferrari or even Sauber, heck Red Bull could do worse.

Why say something like that without even thinking about the obvious answer? Again, you seem to be just "saying stuff" just to have something to say in the majority of your replies.

"less radiant" doesn't mean he wants to stop racing and crawl under a rock, it means that what happened that day and the politics in the team that would lead to that incident seemed to have taken effect on his demeanor.


I'm not sure I'm going to continue, because almost every reply is either deliberately out of context or barely even worth rebutting.

Thats up to you. But Im not just "saying stuff". You are the one making big bold statements with not so much as a shred of evidence on a "technical" board.

Personally, Im going to enjoy watching Lewis Hamilton's riposte to Button. It has all the hallmarks of a classic season and I hope that the battle lasts down to the wire. Button has proven he can beat Hamilton, and vice versa. Hamilton is faster, Button shrewd with pace to match his shrewdness.

[alelanza]

One could also blame the fact that he had to drive so aggressively due to the situation that he was put in, partly by his team making bad decisions.
...

I noticed Lewis seemed to be blaming it on the team with his 'just like last year' comment, but i didn't understand where their strategy failed. It seems to me only their crystal ball failed in regards to the safety car, other than that i don't get it. Can you please elaborate?

[GrizzleBoy]

One could also blame the fact that he had to drive so aggressively due to the situation that he was put in, partly by his team making bad decisions.
...

I noticed Lewis seemed to be blaming it on the team with his 'just like last year' comment, but i didn't understand where their strategy failed. It seems to me only their crystal ball failed in regards to the safety car, other than that i don't get it. Can you please elaborate?

His very first pit stop of 2012 ended up putting him behind traffic, giving Button a lead on him that went from 3-4 seconds to 11 seconds, allowed Vettel to close in on him massively into almost DRS territory, forcing him to push harder, use more rubber on his tyres and use more fuel than necessary which could have been instrumental in pushing to catch up to anyone who "passed" him (i.e. Vettel getting ahead via the safety car).

Good strategy?

[lebesset]

One could also blame the fact that he had to drive so aggressively due to the situation that he was put in, partly by his team making bad decisions.
...

I noticed Lewis seemed to be blaming it on the team with his 'just like last year' comment, but i didn't understand where their strategy failed. It seems to me only their crystal ball failed in regards to the safety car, other than that i don't get it. Can you please elaborate?

His very first pit stop of 2012 ended up putting him behind traffic, giving Button a lead on him that went from 3-4 seconds to 11 seconds, allowed Vettel to close in on him massively into almost DRS territory, forcing him to push harder, use more rubber on his tyres and use more fuel than necessary which could have been instrumental in pushing to catch up to anyone who "passed" him (i.e. Vettel getting ahead via the safety car).

Good strategy?

if I was hamilton I wouldn't be worried that button got the drop on me at the start or that i lost out with the safety car ; --- happens

but I WOULD be upset that button was able to just drive away from me in the first few laps ,that would REALLY worry me when I knew that I was at least as fast a driver ...what was wrong?

[GrizzleBoy]

I noticed Lewis seemed to be blaming it on the team with his 'just like last year' comment, but i didn't understand where their strategy failed. It seems to me only their crystal ball failed in regards to the safety car, other than that i don't get it. Can you please elaborate?

His very first pit stop of 2012 ended up putting him behind traffic, giving Button a lead on him that went from 3-4 seconds to 11 seconds, allowed Vettel to close in on him massively into almost DRS territory, forcing him to push harder, use more rubber on his tyres and use more fuel than necessary which could have been instrumental in pushing to catch up to anyone who "passed" him (i.e. Vettel getting ahead via the safety car).

Good strategy?

if I was hamilton I wouldn't be worried that button got the drop on me at the start or that i lost out with the safety car ; --- happens

but I WOULD be upset that button was able to just drive away from me in the first few laps ,that would REALLY worry me when I knew that I was at least as fast a driver ...what was wrong?

Could be a number of things.

Qualifying pace/setup is a different monster to race pace/setup.

Qualifying pace is dealing with a lighter car and just pushing as much as you can out of it without pushing too much so you have tyres left to actually race with.

Race pace demands you set the car up to handle an extra ~60kg of fuel onboard at the star and be able to adapt to handling changes as fuel burns and tyres evolve throughout the race.

If that isn't right, you wont be winning regardless of qualifying pace.

Think back to Monza where Hamilton was unable to pass Schumacher on the straightdue to his 7th gear being set too short.

It's the exact same reason why the Red Bulls and Ferraris looked "morbid" in Q3 on saturday, but made everyone say "Oh... " come sunday.

Interesting how noone actually brings setup into why Lewis was slower on race day though.