Red Bull RB8 - A-spec vs B-spec

[myurr]

I have no doubt Newey knows what he's doing. What caught me off guard and caused me to start this thread is how RBR have seemingly sacrificed a coke bottle which they have refined and perfected over 3 years

You're starting from a presumption that the coke bottle design from the last few years was giving them a significant advantage. It may well have been, as it is certainly widely believed, but it could be that the shape only worked as well as it did in combination with the EBD or other aero device that they can no longer employ.

[raymondu999]

Well the theory is that it allowed a lot of good air to be fed to their rear wing and beam wing and probably on top of the diffuser. I'd say there's a reason it's stayed there for 3 years, and why other teams have been trying to copy it for over 2 years, such as Merc and Williams, who have got pretty neat rear ends.

For what it's worth apparently they're doing back to backs comparing both specs this weekend.

[myurr]

Well the theory is that it allowed a lot of good air to be fed to their rear wing and beam wing and probably on top of the diffuser. I'd say there's a reason it's stayed there for 3 years, and why other teams have been trying to copy it for over 2 years, such as Merc and Williams, who have got pretty neat rear ends.

For what it's worth apparently they're doing back to backs comparing both specs this weekend.

I'm not saying it doesn't provide benefits, but no one else went to the same extreme with the shape as Red Bull, despite a long period during which they could copy. Can't all be for packaging reasons.

[Paul]

My view is that they refined their previous concept so much they encountered a dead-end of sorts. So even if A-spec is a tenth or two faster initially, they decided that it's time to start with a new, raw, concept and develop it rather than stagnate and start questioning their development plans for the season.

[raymondu999]

Yeah I think they've pretty much squeezed every iota of potential from that tight rear shape.

[myurr]

Well for qualifying at least looks like those voting for the A-spec were wrong. Let's see if Vettel shows better race pace because of a balance more to his liking.

[WhiteBlue]

My view is that Vettel made a wrong decision against the advise of Adrian Newey. The McLaren style wide solution will have more performance potential in the future. Vettel will have to adapt to that style of driving because Webber shows it can be done.

Red Bull internally are technically putting the bench mark on the fastest driver. This is obviously Mark Webber at the moment. No wishful thinking can change results. Seb needs to reflect on this and make the necessary adjustments. I'm pretty sure he can do it.

[myurr]

I think a consensus on one of the "steps back" taken by the team has been consistency/drivability. A car that has a slower "theoretical max laptime" but is more drivable could potentially still produce a quicker laptime.

Sorry to pick on you but I have a strong aversion to the concept and merits of a consensus, and qualifying today demonstrates this beautifully.

In the Sky analysis of why Vettel was struggling it was because he had no confidence in the rear of the car so he wasn't turning in to the corners where he should and was missing apexes all over the place because of this. Webber in contrast was able to turn in and have the confidence that the rear was going to stick. So much for the consensus that the a-spec is easier to drive and more consistent.

My own view, for what it's worth, is that Vettel chose to go back to the a-spec because he's struggling to reconcile the fact that Webber is out performing him in qualifying, thus leading him to seek reasons on the car for it. The reality is that, as 2010 shows us, without the off throttle blowing Webber's natural technique is quicker than Vettel's. He takes a late apex, straightens the car early, and gets back on the throttle early which gets the exhaust blowing again giving him more rear grip. Vettel struggled to copy this in 2010 leading to the off throttle blowing which then gave him the freedom to drive how he preferred and took the advantage away from Webber.

We could see everything switch around again in the race. Perhaps the a-spec gives Vettel a more consistent feeling for the car on higher fuel loads, which may help settle the rear. If that is the case then he could have relatively stronger race pace. But it's going to be a long and very tough season if he keeps qualifying so far down the grid, especially as other teams like Mercedes and Sauber get on top of their cars issues (race pace and qualifying pace respectively).

[WhiteBlue]

I'm seeing people take very premature conclusions here. The facts are that Webber is faster on the McLaren style exhaust. Vettel so far opted for the old style narrow exhaust. He will not have a point to stand on in the future IMO. The video fromn FP1-3 showed that Adrian was discussing the wide style exhaust with Webber. This is a solid indication that the wide style is the way to go. Seb simply got that wrong and he will have to adjust to that.

[myurr]

No, Newey was shown talking to Webber a couple of times. You're jumping to conclusions about what was being discussed and presuming that Newey was not taking any interest in Vettel.

[WhiteBlue]

No, Newey was shown talking to Webber a couple of times. You're jumping to conclusions about what was being discussed and presuming that Newey was not taking any interest in Vettel.

I disagree. If you were following all the FP session videos I reckon you would have come to the same conclusions. In any case this isn't a point that I'm going to follow up. Please have your opinion and let me have mine.

[myurr]

No, Newey was shown talking to Webber a couple of times. You're jumping to conclusions about what was being discussed and presuming that Newey was not taking any interest in Vettel.

I disagree. If you were following all the FP session videos I reckon you would have come to the same conclusions. In any case this isn't a point that I'm going to follow up. Please have your opinion and let me have mine.

That's fine, but I was watching FP1 and 2, it was only 3 that I missed.

[marcush.]

I think the current issues are showing it is not good to have two guys in your team who don´t get along or better said who think their worst enemy is the team on the other side of the garage.
Isn´t it amnazing to see Webber not any quicker than Seb all weekend and come Qualy he can drag out a considerable margin?
Red Bull has reached a state of imbalance and this is just enough to affect the results they achieve when last year they managed the weaknesses they had very well this year it all goes into negatives...Vettels Season will be character building .

[myurr]

I think the current issues are showing it is not good to have two guys in your team who don´t get along or better said who think their worst enemy is the team on the other side of the garage.
Isn´t it amnazing to see Webber not any quicker than Seb all weekend and come Qualy he can drag out a considerable margin?
Red Bull has reached a state of imbalance and this is just enough to affect the results they achieve when last year they managed the weaknesses they had very well this year it all goes into negatives...Vettels Season will be character building .

You say that they coped last year but Webber under performed. This year it looks like it's shaping up to be the other way round.

[raymondu999]

qualifying today demonstrates this beautifully.

I disagree. Vettel produced 3 identical laps down to a few thousandths difference in Q2, except for an error he did on his last Q2 run in Sector 1. That to me shows a very drivable car.

The reality is that, as 2010 shows us, without the off throttle blowing Webber's natural technique is quicker than Vettel's. He takes a late apex, straightens the car early, and gets back on the throttle early which gets the exhaust blowing again giving him more rear grip. Vettel struggled to copy this in 2010 leading to the off throttle blowing which then gave him the freedom to drive how he preferred and took the advantage away from Webber.

Agreed. I think to add to this - I think since the start of DRS-assisted quali (ie starting last year) Webber has started to pile on a bit more rear wing, or less front wing. He seems to set the car up for a slightly understeery aero balance, so that counters the aero oversteer balance of opening the DRS. You could see very clearly that there were corners last year only he could take with DRS on, and when faced with a high speed direction change, at least in quali, you could see that Mark sometimes struggled to get the front in. Possibly, this would help him better too in that he has a stable, balanced car on entry (off throttle) then he picks a very straight, late apex line exiting the corner. With his foot then down on the pedal it should induce understeer with Webber's setup, but the lack of steering sort of "negates" that exit understeer effect. I think Vettel on the other hand has been setting up for a more "on-throttle" balance, leaving him with an unstable car on entry.

We could see everything switch around again in the race. Perhaps the a-spec gives Vettel a more consistent feeling for the car on higher fuel loads, which may help settle the rear. If that is the case then he could have relatively stronger race pace. But it's going to be a long and very tough season if he keeps qualifying so far down the grid, especially as other teams like Mercedes and Sauber get on top of their cars issues (race pace and qualifying pace respectively).

Yeah - we'll see in the race.

I'm seeing people take very premature conclusions here. The facts are that Webber is faster on the McLaren style exhaust.

That sounds pretty premature a conclusion to me to be honest. In all fairness. Seb was, option for option, about 2 and a half tenths under Webber in Malaysia Q3. He was 3.3 tenths under Webber in Q2 today. He lost (relatively) a tenth.