Purist vs Spectacle?

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raymondu999
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Re: Purist vs Spectacle?

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Yes - it's saddening that cars are lapping slower each year.
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Cam
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Re: Purist vs Spectacle?

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Ticket prices for 2012 (from http://www.ticketcity.com).

• INDY 500 (Indianapolis) General Admission ticket = $41.00
• F1 United States GP (Austin) General Admission ticket - $287.00

My understanding of demographics tells me there's a certain kind of person each race category is directed too. The stock wheel to wheel, spills and all has it's market and it's market loves it and the price reflects the market.

With the F1 audience being what it is, anyone paying that kind of cash for a ticket knows why they going already. The show is big enough just to be 'seen' there. So again, why mess with the cars?
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beelsebob
beelsebob
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Location: Cupertino, California

Re: Purist vs Spectacle?

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raymondu999 wrote:Yes - it's saddening that cars are lapping slower each year.
They are? Last I checked we were still within a second or two of the lap record at every single track, and we've been in that area for the past 30 odd years.

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Cam
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Re: Purist vs Spectacle?

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beelsebob wrote:
raymondu999 wrote:Yes - it's saddening that cars are lapping slower each year.
They are? Last I checked we were still within a second or two of the lap record at every single track, and we've been in that area for the past 30 odd years.

SPA last couple of years - total race time:

2011 - 1:26:44.893

2010 - 1:29:04.268

2009 - 1:23:50.995

2008 - 1:22:59.394

2007 - 1:20:39.066
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

beelsebob
beelsebob
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Re: Purist vs Spectacle?

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Cam wrote:
beelsebob wrote:
raymondu999 wrote:Yes - it's saddening that cars are lapping slower each year.
They are? Last I checked we were still within a second or two of the lap record at every single track, and we've been in that area for the past 30 odd years.

SPA last couple of years - total race time:

2011 - 1:26:44.893

2010 - 1:29:04.268

2009 - 1:23:50.995

2008 - 1:22:59.394

2007 - 1:20:39.066
And yet on lap 33, mark webber set a 1:49.8, about 2 seconds slower than the lap record, on the longest track on the entire calendar, demonstrating that the difference in race time is down to differences in rules re how tyre changes/tyre degradation/fuel etc works, rather than how quick the cars are.

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Cam
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Re: Purist vs Spectacle?

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beelsebob wrote:And yet on lap 33, mark webber set a 1:49.8, about 2 seconds slower than the lap record, on the longest track on the entire calendar, demonstrating that the difference in race time is down to differences in rules re how tyre changes/tyre degradation/fuel etc works, rather than how quick the cars are.
I agree with you. But the cars are still slower, not faster. Each year we should be seeing faster times as the cars improve. Watching Spa this year knowing that lap record is getting smashed is all but a dream - and this is the result of the finest category of motorsport? It's daft to not be harder, better, faster, stronger.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

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raymondu999
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Re: Purist vs Spectacle?

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beelsebob - check pole times. Lap records are recorded in the race. A bit of the race pace deficit since 2010-2012 to years before that can and should be attributed to the lack of refueling. But even on a balls-out quali lap generally the cars are slower, save for a few isolated incidents such as Vettel's two laps in Monaco and Melbourne last year.
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myurr
myurr
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Re: Purist vs Spectacle?

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Cam wrote:
beelsebob wrote:And yet on lap 33, mark webber set a 1:49.8, about 2 seconds slower than the lap record, on the longest track on the entire calendar, demonstrating that the difference in race time is down to differences in rules re how tyre changes/tyre degradation/fuel etc works, rather than how quick the cars are.
I agree with you. But the cars are still slower, not faster. Each year we should be seeing faster times as the cars improve. Watching Spa this year knowing that lap record is getting smashed is all but a dream - and this is the result of the finest category of motorsport? It's daft to not be harder, better, faster, stronger.
But that's utterly unsustainable. Both from a human pilot point of view through to it reducing the opportunity for racing.

There has been a certain amount of slowing the cars for safety reasons but there is an overlooked secondary reason. If the cars are too quick then usually this will mean that they are impossible to race. Aero becomes too dominant and hopefully we all know about the dirty air problems for racing when the aerodynamics of the cars plays too much of a role in the performance of the cars.

Then you have the other aspect which is a combination of braking distance and turn in speed reducing the opportunity for out braking another driver into a corner. If the braking distance is too short and / or the turn in speed to the corner too high then it becomes impossible for there to be any overtaking into a corner. This will lead to there only ever being DRS overtakes, especially if you want to remove the variability of the tyres.

How do you reconcile the banning of traction control? The purist must want the teams to be allowed to use traction control, as it's a performance related innovation, but it takes away from the skill of the drivers and makes the cars easier to drive. What about then adding ABS, active suspension, and ultimately even replacing the driver entirely with a computer? From an engineering point of view getting rid of the driver would allow for faster cars and would be more 'pure' as it's the pursuit of the best possible solution technically.

I also find it amusing how you're happy for a team to come up with an aero innovation that leads to a dominant car but hate the possibility of a suspension or other innovation, coupled with a better understanding of the tyres, leading to a dominant car because they can work with the Pirelli's better than anyone else. Both require engineers doing a better job than their contemporaries. It was also a key differentiator in Red Bull's favour last year, and one of the contributing reasons as to why Vettel was so dominant even over his own team mate and yet few complained then.

My own view is that having the best tech around is great an' all, but if the drivers are unable to race against each other then you may as well not bother. If this means the cars need to be slowed to make it physically possible for there to be a race then, as much as it's a shame, so be it.

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raymondu999
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Re: Purist vs Spectacle?

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Cars needn't go quicker in my view - but they shouldn't go slower. Traction control and ABS in my view aren't performance enhancing upgrades - they're driver aids. They themselves don't make the car go faster - they help the driver drive closer to the car's limit.
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Cam
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Re: Purist vs Spectacle?

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myurr wrote:My own view is that having the best tech around is great an' all, but if the drivers are unable to race against each other then you may as well not bother. If this means the cars need to be slowed to make it physically possible for there to be a race then, as much as it's a shame, so be it.
Cheers Myurr, this is not about right and wrong, more so a chance to see if the spectacle is better or worse than the engineering of f1 and your points are noted and I appreciate the opinion.

So you would be in the spectacle camp? If F1 became more like INDY and less about tech, that's okay, so why not just watch INDY and let F1 stay hard to overtake and get faster and better each year? No other sport does it, shouldn't there be at least one we can watch like that?
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

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raymondu999
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Re: Purist vs Spectacle?

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Makes you wonder what would've happened with the 2009 FOTA breakaway series threat, doesn't it? :lol:

In other news, Briatore is apparently working on a fallback for the FIA called GP1. Judging by the nomenclature seems like an F1-level (in terms of speed) spec series? Kinda like GP2's big brother? Why not have the "spectacle" peeps over on GP1 and have the "technical advancement" peeps in F1? Keeps both ends happy, I guess. Those unhappy with F1 can just move to GP1 viewership. Mind you knowing myself I'd probably watch both :mrgreen:
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Cam
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Re: Purist vs Spectacle?

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raymondu999 wrote:Makes you wonder what would've happened with the 2009 FOTA breakaway series threat, doesn't it? :lol:

In other news, Briatore is apparently working on a fallback for the FIA called GP1. Judging by the nomenclature seems like an F1-level (in terms of speed) spec series? Kinda like GP2's big brother? Why not have the "spectacle" peeps over on GP1 and have the "technical advancement" peeps in F1? Keeps both ends happy, I guess. Those unhappy with F1 can just move to GP1 viewership. Mind you knowing myself I'd probably watch both :mrgreen:
Agreed 100% I hope GP1 takes off. There's a natural progression there so you may as well use it. When the GP1 champ wants to know if they're good enough, they'll come to F1 eventually. Doesn't mean you'll win, but you want to drive the best car with the best team and F1 is (was) that place.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

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Cam
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Joined: 02 Mar 2012, 08:38

Re: Purist vs Spectacle?

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beelsebob wrote:
raymondu999 wrote:Yes - it's saddening that cars are lapping slower each year.
They are? Last I checked we were still within a second or two of the lap record at every single track, and we've been in that area for the past 30 odd years.
From the Australian GP: Fastest Lap

2012 - 1:29.187
2011 - 1:28.947
2010 - 1:28.358
2009 - 1:27.706
Back to Slicks
2008 - 1:27.418
2007 - 1:25.235
Grooved Tyres

LOL 4 secs faster in 2007 on grooved tyres and a steady decline since. As a purist, I'm shaking my head......
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

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raymondu999
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Re: Purist vs Spectacle?

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I doubt it. I think F1 and GP1 will be roughly on a similar level. GP1 will be for the race fans who want spec cars - except they're maybe just about of the same laptime capability as maybe a lower-top team in F1 (something like Sauber, kinda) this year. F1 will be mainly for the aero/tech geeks. And those who love the inter-strategy "cold war" of laptimes, of course :mrgreen:
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beelsebob
beelsebob
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Re: Purist vs Spectacle?

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Cam wrote:
beelsebob wrote:And yet on lap 33, mark webber set a 1:49.8, about 2 seconds slower than the lap record, on the longest track on the entire calendar, demonstrating that the difference in race time is down to differences in rules re how tyre changes/tyre degradation/fuel etc works, rather than how quick the cars are.
I agree with you. But the cars are still slower, not faster. Each year we should be seeing faster times as the cars improve. Watching Spa this year knowing that lap record is getting smashed is all but a dream - and this is the result of the finest category of motorsport? It's daft to not be harder, better, faster, stronger.
I disagree – seeing faster times each year would rapidly become unsafe. Moving the goal posts to maintain the speed is entirely rational and sane. It does not reduce the engineering challenge – it just makes the engineering challenge "try to stay as fast as you were with fewer resources" instead of "try to get faster and faster with the same resources".