Purist vs Spectacle?

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Cam
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Re: Purist vs Spectacle?

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rjsa wrote:If you look back, cars failed to the point of drivers being allowed to discard results. Tyres where messed up and caused much more bias when one brand had the upper hand above the other one(s). There was more than one possible strategie and quite often someone would try something unexpected and come around passing the whole field.....Those where machines going beyond the well controlled conditions, trying the new and falling appart in the way.
Agreed. That's what I fell in love with. Sometimes an idea worked, sometimes it didn't and we saw some crazy stuff. But the teams never stopped trying or innovating. Sure, a combination would come along and clean up, but what's wrong with that. Only if F1 is/should that be possible. We should see more flexible body shapes and types, electric motors maybe.... think of where industry would be now if an F1 car had a winning electric engine. No refuelling, would dominate, everyone would have to come up with something even better than that to win. F1 at it's best. That's what we want to see, well, me anyway.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
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Just_a_fan
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Re: Purist vs Spectacle?

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bhallg2k wrote:What does money have to do with restrictive regulations?

Think about that for a moment before you answer.
It's quite simple. If you do not have restrictive regulations then the team with the most money wins.

To explain: If the teams had free rein with no technical restrictions then they would spend vast amounts of money developing ever more powereful and efficient engines to power cars which had ever more effective and efficient aerodynamics. Driver assistance systems (ABS, TC, ESP) would be developed and honed to the n'th degree. Active suspension would be developed to such an extent that the cars would know what the expected surface was to the millimetre. Active aero would be fine tuned to be track specific. Indeed, aero mapping would probably be so finely tuned that each track map would allow for variations in conditions e.g. temperature, wind speed. Every revision would be tested on a real car on a test track by a dedicated team of drivers and engineers.

Where now we see the competitive teams spending c.£300m we'd see one or two teams spending £500m or more. The teams with the most money would win because they would be able to get the last % of performance out of each component.

Performance gains are goverened by the law of diminishing returns. The rate of that diminishing return curve is determined by how much money you can throw at a given problem. Given enough money any problem can be solved. He with most money solves the most problems and wins.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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Cam
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Re: Purist vs Spectacle?

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Just_a_fan wrote:
bhallg2k wrote:What does money have to do with restrictive regulations?

Think about that for a moment before you answer.
It's quite simple. If you do not have restrictive regulations then the team with the most money wins.
I don't see the problem with that. Take V8 Supercars for an example, they're moving to cut costs and have one chassis and other similar components. They hope this will attract more manufacturers and teams while reducing the annual costs to go racing. Fine. I have no problem with that, for that category. Why should every category be the same? It's like going to buy cereal and it's all the same on the inside except the packaging - boring. So what if F1 needs to most money to win. It's not for everyone, so why can't one category be about money? The fact that some people cannot afford it, is not a reason to reduce costs. Some of the best races I've seen has been entry level cars with minimum costs. Go race INDY or DTM if money is a factor, you'll get coverage for your sponsors and have wheel to wheel action, no ever knows who'll win. F1 is and should stay elite.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Purist vs Spectacle?

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Cam wrote:Here's a list (that I cannot take credit for, nor is it complete) of F1 engineering innovations conceived to make the car better. Over the last couple of years, nothing really has been groundbreaking - a pipe for wind and hot air flow - wow!

2012 F-duct - no wait we had that… brake fins, c'mon we can do better than that……. Pull Rod Front Sus… wait, had that too…… Any others?

2011 Exhaust Blown Diffuser
2010 Double Diffuser
2010 F-Duct
....
Hmmm, now go back to your list and look at what was actually invented by F1. Aero? Nope. Moveable wings? Nope. Carbon brakes? Nope. Electronic brake force distribution? Nope. Semi-auto boxes? Nope. Turbo? Nope. 4 wheel drive? Nope. Disc brakes? Nope. Streamlined bodies? Nope. Etc. Etc. Ad nauseum. One might suggest that ground effect was an F1 first but even that was an accidental find because the wind tunnel model was floppy. And even then F1 wasn't first; Chapparal's fan car predated anything in F1.

Tony Southgate's clever use of the lateral horizontal gurney along the side of the Grp C Jaguars was much more impressive. He looked at the rules and sacrificed floor area in order to fit the gurney. The result was improved downforce (more than was lost by making the car narrower), reduced drag (because the car was narrower in frontal projection/area and the downforce was more efficient) and, crucially, it was not possible to copy it because the rules set the width limit of the cars and the other teams literally couldn't fit it to their cars because they were all designed to maximum width. Very clever and very effective.

The point is that F1 is not innovative. Never has been. It takes ideas from elsewhere and fits them in to cars governed by rules in order to gain performance in a way not foreseen by those rules. F1 is a game of loopholes.

There are two myths in F1:
1. That it is the pinnacle of engineering
2. That it is relevant to anything other than itself (i.e. the myth that it must be road car relevant)

One could add that there is a third myth about the drivers being the best in the world. I'd say that WRC drivers are probably "better" in that they are fast on a multitude of surfaces/conditions. But that is a sideline and not too important here.

The best engineers are those who can look at a set of restrictions and still make the fastest car. That is real skill. Any fool can make a fast car if they're allowed a free hand to do what they want. No skill there. Look at the recent RedBulls. With the same set of rules they managed to make a car that was demonstrably quicker than any other car. That's impressive even if, as a McLaren fan, I was annoyed by it. The f-duct of the year before was another example of being very clever. It met every rule requirement and delivered a very real performance boost. So much so that others had to develop their own. That's the mark of a decent "new" development.

I'm always deeply impressed by the way that F1's teams keep finding performance even as the rules seek to limit that performance. That is the real wonder of F1.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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Cam
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Just_a_fan wrote:The point is that F1 is not innovative. Never has been. It takes ideas from elsewhere and fits them in to cars governed by rules in order to gain performance in a way not foreseen by those rules. F1 is a game of loopholes.
Yes, aero is from avionics etc... I get that and I think that's obvious. I guess I was trying to point out that F1 is the only category where a car turns up with this new technology fitted ready to race. Every other category is essentially a stock car, give or take. There's no way a INDY car could turn up 3 races in with a new feature. Whether a team actually 'invented' it or not is not really what I was trying to say, it's more that they implemented it and that F1 as a sport had a structure to allow that. So it is innovative to use new or existing technologies to make your car go faster.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

bhall
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Re: Purist vs Spectacle?

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Just_a_fan wrote:It's quite simple...
Think about it some more, but with the idea that less restrictive regulations doesn't necessarily mean unrestricted regulations.

Also, consider, if you will, some of the following questions.

Is it more expensive to create (to have an idea) or is it more expensive to refine (to polish existing ones)?

Does F1 need a resource restriction agreement under the current regulations?

Why are Ferrari and Mercedes seemingly always playing catch-up?

Why did Toyota, Honda and BMW leave F1?

Can engineers unlearn lessons already learned?

What effects do stability and instability have on costs?

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Cam
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bhallg2k wrote:Is it more expensive to create (to have an idea) or is it more expensive to refine (to polish existing ones)
Awesome point. Ideas are free and F1 should be able to keep coming with these ideas and trying them out.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

Just_a_fan
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Cam wrote:So what if F1 needs to most money to win. It's not for everyone, so why can't one category be about money? The fact that some people cannot afford it, is not a reason to reduce costs. Some of the best races I've seen has been entry level cars with minimum costs. Go race INDY or DTM if money is a factor, you'll get coverage for your sponsors and have wheel to wheel action, no ever knows who'll win. F1 is and should stay elite.
Ok, let's follow your argument and allow free spending. Where does the money come from? Sponsors. Some are commercial brands wanting to gain reflected glory and some are directly involved e.g. suppliers of components such as engines.

As costs increase, the sponsors will each decide that they can't afford to pay any more. The teams that haven't done well will lose sponsors and so be unable to fund the vast sums needed to develop the car. THey will fall back and eventually leave the sport.

After a period of time (Probably only two or three years) we will be left with a small number (2,3, maybe 4?) of teams competing. These will be the teams that have been reasonably competitive to date. They will also probably have main component manufacturer backing e.g. engine manufacturer such as Mercedes. These sponsors will be asked for very large sum in order for the teams to try to find the next little gain. Many will struggle to find that extra money.

Once a team finds a successful formula, it will win more and so be able to attract the last bit of sponsorship. This will help it to keep winning. The other teams' sponsors will get tired of giving lots of money to fund teams that don't succeeed and will leave.

The result will be the financial death of F1.

Want to see this in reality? Look at the short existance of the GT series in the 1990s. In 1994 - 1996 the series was fairly open with lots of interest. In 1997 the FIA took over and increasingly allowed homolgation specials (very limited run cars) to compete. The result was a cost explosion, a reduction in manufacturers to 3 and the eventual death of the series. It was reinvented on more regulated grounds and continues even now albeit in a rather different form.

If you think that F1 can survive with just 10 cars on the grid then you are somewhat deluded I'm afraid. History shows that such series die very quickly.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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Cam
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Just_a_fan wrote:If you think that F1 can survive with just 10 cars on the grid then you are somewhat deluded I'm afraid. History shows that such series die very quickly.
If there's one thing I've learned about humans it's the will to win and ego drive to conquer that will always see evolution and a way to succeed. People have money. Some have lots. Some have more than a modest country. Money is not the issue. It's the ones who can't afford it making the most noise. Would F1 die if just 10 awesome cars raced? I doubt it. Take things away from people and they want it more. Less races, less cars, more tech, greater show - people will pay to see it. All of a sudden advertising space is limited - it becomes premium....

You want a spectacle and are happy to reduce it all down so everyone does the same lap time and the back maker can win - I get that and that's okay. As it already exists in other category's, why does F1 needs to produce it.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

Fat_T0ny
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Re: Purist vs Spectacle?

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bhallg2k wrote:What does money have to do with restrictive regulations?

Think about that for a moment before you answer.

Less restriction = greater scope for R&D. Greater scope = more cost.

Fat_T0ny
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Cam wrote:
Fat_T0ny wrote:WHen I said it would be Mclaren vs Ferrari lapping the whole field if the rules were more liberal. I should of said it would be Mclaren vs Ferrari with no field.
I think you doubt the will of humans to win. There will always be someone ready to take up the challenge to knock the top teams off. Look at Red Bull. They make watery drinks and yet they had a vision to be the best and they did it. I personally would rather see fewer cars and let them fight it out with max engineering, max speed. Maybe the bottom teams would join forces, come up with an ingenuous idea, win the championship, knock the 2 teams off and prove the F1 ethos still lives.

F1 should be about striving to succeed, against all the odds. Winning is the mark of a true champion and should be cherished and honored for critical understanding and effort, not for fluking a setup that you can't replicate.
You are only allowed to win if you have the most money? Winning is only for a true champion? :wtf:

I don't understand want isn't being replicated? We don't race on the same track with all the same cars with all the same conditions, with robotic drivers.

bhall
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Those assumption aren't automatic. Ferrari, Mercedes and McLaren have gobs of money, but they're not always at the front. Lotus/Renault have never been at the top of the spending charts, and their success ebbs and flows just like the others.

R&D can take place on the back of a napkin, a wind tunnel, while someone is mowing their lawn, or on a two-thousand-billion peta-tera-giga-floppy supercomputer.

What tool is more necessary for originality? For refinement?

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Cam
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Fat_T0ny wrote:You are only allowed to win if you have the most money? Winning is only for a true champion? :wtf:
You missed the essence - let me word it better. I truly believe the most innovative solution and effort will/should win and that's deserving of a true champion driver and team who deliver it. If it takes lots money to implement that solution, so be it. But it's not the money at the core, it's the idea. You can throw money at something and not get results. I can name a few right now in that boat. The concept and idea is king and money can't buy that. Something so simple and effortless has the potential over capital - if allowed to flourish.

By dumbing down the regs and screwing them so tight that a team cannot approach a problem from another direction - well, F1 is dead. Take the Fuel savings (few discussions in this forum right now) - previously, a team could come up with a new engine and try and tackle the problem from a completely different angle - they can't now as the regs won't allow that. That's not what F1 was all about - was it?
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

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Cam
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Fat_T0ny wrote:I don't understand want isn't being replicated? We don't race on the same track with all the same cars with all the same conditions, with robotic drivers.

Well, you do, to a point. Take these results:

FORMULA 1 GRAN PREMIO DE ESPAÑA

2012
1 - Williams-Renault
2 - Ferrari
3 - Lotus-Renault

2011
1 - Red Bull Racing-Renault
2 - McLaren-Mercedes
3 - McLaren-Mercedes

2010
1 - RBR-Renault
2 - Ferrari
3 - RBR-Renault

2009
1 - Brawn-Mercedes
2 - Brawn-Mercedes
3 - RBR-Renault

2008
1 - Ferrari
2 - Ferrari
3 - McLaren-Mercedes

I see, over a period of years, consistency - several drivers/teams/people all in the top few spots. They know how to get around the track. They know what to expect. Look at 2012 first place - WTF? Now I know this is what the spectacle wants, but that shouldn't happened - because of tyres??? If it was from a result of a technical development, cool - but it isn't. I'm not sure Williams can replicate that again and again.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

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raymondu999
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bhallg2k wrote:Those assumption aren't automatic. Ferrari, Mercedes and McLaren have gobs of money, but they're not always at the front. Lotus/Renault have never been at the top of the spending charts, and their success ebbs and flows just like the others.

R&D can take place on the back of a napkin, a wind tunnel, while someone is mowing their lawn, or on a two-thousand-billion peta-tera-giga-floppy supercomputer.

What tool is more necessary for originality? For refinement?
Aye. Unrestrict the regs, add in a budget cap. Let the ones who get best value for money win.
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