Embarrassment for Hamilton? The Reborn Button...

[simieski]

I actually believe Button is harming the development of the car, his engineers are wasting far to much time trying to make the car drivable for him, at the expense of making the car faster.

That's highly unlikely.

It may seem counterintuitive on the surface, but I think the tires are playing a significant role here. Button's style is centered around taking care of the tires by being as smooth as possible. Hamilton, on the other hand, is much more aggressive. In short, that means Hamilton has the experience and the ability to drive on worn-out tires, because his driving style demands it. Button does everything he can to avoid the worn-out tire experience, but that's simply impossible this year.

I do not think anyone is capable of being competitive driving on worn out tyres. Ref Alonso/Vettel today...
I think maybe last year we saw a blip on the standard deviation between these two. It took Hamilton having his worst season ever, and Button, by his own admission, to be driving the best he ever has, for him to come out as the number one driver that season.

[astracrazy]

I actually believe Button is harming the development of the car, his engineers are wasting far to much time trying to make the car drivable for him, at the expense of making the car faster.

That's highly unlikely.

It may seem counterintuitive on the surface, but I think the tires are playing a significant role here. Button's style is centered around taking care of the tires by being as smooth as possible. Hamilton, on the other hand, is much more aggressive. In short, that means Hamilton has the experience and the ability to drive on worn-out tires, because his driving style demands it. Button does everything he can to avoid the worn-out tire experience, but that's simply impossible this year.

ye i really can't see the team would focus there efforts on the slower driver when there other driver is leading the championship. If anything unequal comes into it then updates would favour Hamilton. On the face of it i think the updates to the car are updates to the car, the drivers need to utilise this.

[bhall]

I do not think anyone is capable of being competitive driving on worn out tyres.

[...]

I guess I wasn't clear. I'm not saying Hamilton is necessarily fast on worn-out tires. I'm saying he has the ability - the flexibility - to drive around the characteristics typical of worn-out tires. Someone with his aggressive style needs that ability, else they'd go nowhere fast.

On the other hand, Button has made a career out of driving a certain way specifically to avoid experiencing those characteristics at all costs. This is all well and good until the tires demand otherwise, like this year. Last year's Pirellis were certainly sloppy at times, but they've been ridiculous this year.

[GrizzleBoy]

I actually believe Button is harming the development of the car, his engineers are wasting far to much time trying to make the car drivable for him, at the expense of making the car faster.

That's highly unlikely.

It may seem counterintuitive on the surface, but I think the tires are playing a significant role here. Button's style is centered around taking care of the tires by being as smooth as possible. Hamilton, on the other hand, is much more aggressive. In short, that means Hamilton has the experience and the ability to drive on worn-out tires, because his driving style demands it. Button does everything he can to avoid the worn-out tire experience, but that's simply impossible this year.

I do not think anyone is capable of being competitive driving on worn out tyres. Ref Alonso/Vettel today...
I think maybe last year we saw a blip on the standard deviation between these two. It took Hamilton having his worst season ever, and Button, by his own admission, to be driving the best he ever has, for him to come out as the number one driver that season.

Yep, as I said before the season started, this will be the true season to judge the two in terms of driving ability.

Jenson wasn't beating Lewis in 2011, Lewis was beating himself. It wasn't like the two were engaged in heated battles and Button was besting him every time. Lewis was just all over the place and ruining things for himself on his own. Even with that, he still managed to match the amount of race wins that Jenson got.

All Lewis had to do to put pressure on Jenson this season to fight for his number one spot is to simply finish races. His focus on consistency this season is proof of that.

However, Jensons problems seem really serious. With all the unpredictability this season, his weekends have almost become predictably bad. Even with the oil leak, I still think Jenson has an underlying issue.

[myurr]

It's not got anything to do with driving on worn tyres. A worn tyre won't give you good performance regardless of how you cope with the balance.

What you're seeing is Lewis being able to be aggressive with the tyres for a lap or two to get good heat into them and then back off and drive more smoothly, whereas Button isn't able to get that initial heat into the tyre. He ends up sliding around more which destroys and heats the surface without working or heating as effectively the core of the tyre.

In Canada I think we saw Hamilton bias his setup heavily for the race which gave him great pace on the Sunday but meant even he struggled with single lap tyre warm up for qualifying. In the race we saw him start to get the tyres heated by the end of the out lap, have good pace the following lap, but then go even faster the lap after that as the temperatures reached optimum. And this was during the race when temperatures were a lot higher than qualifying.

If Button copied that setup or used it as his baseline then he possibly would have struggled to get any heat into the tyres in the race.

[QLDriver]

Sam Michael commented that Lewis can drive around the car being tail happy whereas Jenson tends to struggle.

It seems like one difference is that while when the car is glued to the track, they will both perform well, but when the car is sub-par, Lewis can drive around the issues more.

[beelsebob]

Sam Michael commented that Lewis can drive around the car being tail happy whereas Jenson tends to struggle.

It seems like one difference is that while when the car is glued to the track, they will both perform well, but when the car is sub-par, Lewis can drive around the issues more.

To be honest, I wouldn't call the car sub-par today in any way. I honestly think a lot of the forum are just underestimating how much effect losing 3 hours out of 4 setup time will impact jenson.

[GrizzleBoy]

I honestly think a lot of the forum are just underestimating how much effect losing 3 hours out of 4 setup time will impact jenson.

I think more people would be willing to accept that easier if this kind of performance wasn't in line with how he has been performing previously.

Its obviously something to consider, but given his problems setting up the car in general for a long time now, it seems like it would have only had a small effect.

[bhall]

I guess I wasn't clear. I'm not saying Hamilton is necessarily fast on worn-out tires. I'm saying he has the ability - the flexibility - to drive around the characteristics typical of worn-out tires. Someone with his aggressive style needs that ability, else they'd go nowhere fast.

On the other hand, Button has made a career out of driving a certain way specifically to avoid experiencing those characteristics at all costs. This is all well and good until the tires demand otherwise, like this year. Last year's Pirellis were certainly sloppy at times, but they've been ridiculous this year.

It's not got anything to do with driving on worn tyres. A worn tyre won't give you good performance regardless of how you cope with the balance.

What you're seeing is Lewis being able to be aggressive with the tyres for a lap or two to get good heat into them and then back off and drive more smoothly, whereas Button isn't able to get that initial heat into the tyre. He ends up sliding around more which destroys and heats the surface without working or heating as effectively the core of the tyre.

In Canada I think we saw Hamilton bias his setup heavily for the race which gave him great pace on the Sunday but meant even he struggled with single lap tyre warm up for qualifying. In the race we saw him start to get the tyres heated by the end of the out lap, have good pace the following lap, but then go even faster the lap after that as the temperatures reached optimum. And this was during the race when temperatures were a lot higher than qualifying.

If Button copied that setup or used it as his baseline then he possibly would have struggled to get any heat into the tyres in the race.

In other words, you agree?

[QLDriver]

To be honest, I wouldn't call the car sub-par today in any way. I honestly think a lot of the forum are just underestimating how much effect losing 3 hours out of 4 setup time will impact jenson.

Neither would I, but what I mean is Hamilton rarely seems to be as lost at sea as Button looked today. Button was just plain SLOW - not stuck in traffic, he was slow on a clear track. It always seems like even when the car is not handling in an ideal way, but still healthy, Hamilton is less likely to be that far off the pace.

[beelsebob]

To be honest, I wouldn't call the car sub-par today in any way. I honestly think a lot of the forum are just underestimating how much effect losing 3 hours out of 4 setup time will impact jenson.

Neither would I, but what I mean is Hamilton rarely seems to be as lost at sea as Button looked today. Button was just plain SLOW - not stuck in traffic, he was slow on a clear track. It always seems like even when the car is not handling in an ideal way, but still healthy, Hamilton is less likely to be that far off the pace.

It happened a lot the other way round last season (e.g. japan). I think it's just a fact of life on the current tyres, they suit hamilton better than they do button.

[bhall]

That's the nature of the beasts. And by beasts, I mean Pirellis.

[QLDriver]

It happened a lot the other way round last season (e.g. japan). I think it's just a fact of life on the current tyres, they suit hamilton better than they do button.

Given that he finished 5th in the race 24 seconds behind, yes, it was a worse performance, but not on the magnitude of today?

He only had 3 non-points scoring results last year (all DNF, 2 collisions and 1 mechanical), and Jenson has 4 non-points scoring finishes this year, with two being directly attributable to performance - Monaco and Canada.

[beelsebob]

It happened a lot the other way round last season (e.g. japan). I think it's just a fact of life on the current tyres, they suit hamilton better than they do button.

Given that he finished 5th in the race 24 seconds behind, yes, it was a worse performance, but not on the magnitude of today?

Sure, not on the magnitude of today; but it might have been if he'd only been given 1 hour to set up his car. I find it hilarious how quickly the mood on this forum can flip flop sometimes. Last year, Button could do no wrong and Hamilton "needed to be fired/banned"... This year suddenly Button is apparently one of the most disastrous drivers to grace a circuit... Instead, it could simply be that a number of factors went against Button, and he didn't get it all hooked up.

[PlatinumZealot]

To be honest, I wouldn't call the car sub-par today in any way. I honestly think a lot of the forum are just underestimating how much effect losing 3 hours out of 4 setup time will impact jenson.

Neither would I, but what I mean is Hamilton rarely seems to be as lost at sea as Button looked today. Button was just plain SLOW - not stuck in traffic, he was slow on a clear track. It always seems like even when the car is not handling in an ideal way, but still healthy, Hamilton is less likely to be that far off the pace.

It happened a lot the other way round last season (e.g. japan). I think it's just a fact of life on the current tyres, they suit hamilton better than they do button.

Hamilton was blazing fast in Japan... he just burnt through the tyres too fast trying to catch Vettel.