Embarrassment for Hamilton? The Reborn Button...

[GrizzleBoy]

it could simply be that a number of factors went against Button, and he didn't get it all hooked up.

Again, many people would be looking at it that simply if he wasn't consistently having rings driven around him just in general, regardless of whether he has setup time or not.

Since the teams came out of Mugello, he has not been able to get into Q3 and only really made it this time because Maldonado had a visit to the wall of champions on his fastest lap.

[beelsebob]

it could simply be that a number of factors went against Button, and he didn't get it all hooked up.

Again, many people would be looking at it that simply if he wasn't consistently having rings driven around him just in general, regardless of whether he has setup time or not.

That's rather the point I was making – 2 races in one season is hardly "consistently having rings driven around him"... Unless you also want to assert that Button consistently drives rings around Hamilton, after all, he did beat him in at least 2 races, by a significant margin, last year.

The plural of anecdote is not data.

[QLDriver]

Sure, not on the magnitude of today; but it might have been if he'd only been given 1 hour to set up his car. I find it hilarious how quickly the mood on this forum can flip flop sometimes. Last year, Button could do no wrong and Hamilton "needed to be fired/banned"... This year suddenly Button is apparently one of the most disastrous drivers to grace a circuit... Instead, it could simply be that a number of factors went against Button, and he didn't get it all hooked up.

I certainly don't think he's disastrous! I think McLaren have one of the strongest driver pairings on the grid. I simply think that history seems to show that when things go well for Button, things go really well, but when things go wrong, they go really wrong - he's less able to drive around handling issues. Sam Michael said as much!

[GrizzleBoy]

it could simply be that a number of factors went against Button, and he didn't get it all hooked up.

Again, many people would be looking at it that simply if he wasn't consistently having rings driven around him just in general, regardless of whether he has setup time or not.

That's rather the point I was making – 2 races in one season is hardly "consistently having rings driven around him"... Unless you also want to assert that Button consistently drives rings around Hamilton, after all, he did beat him in at least 2 races, by a significant margin, last year.

The plural of anecdote is not data.

Two races? I take it you're not counting this race then, even though Buttons engineer thought Buttons performance was sub par regardless of setup time?

Jenson started going backwards significantly since Bahrain and his performances have literally kept going backwards on all fronts since then.

We're not even just talking about races here though are we?

Not only has Button been out of place on Sundays, he's been having to fight to get into Q3 and only scraped through with luck thanks to Maldonado this time or it would have been three out of three races he started outside the top ten.

There's a stark difference between being ahead of your team mate because he's ruining his own races despite having pace (Button v Hamilton in 2011), and being ahead of your team mate because he's consistently moving backwards every weekend and lacking pace in general, not just in the race, but in quali aswell.

[JimClarkFan]

Didn't several of us say that Button and Hamilton ought to be at Mugello? - its came back to haunt them...well back to haunt Button to be clear.

I don't know what is going on with the car, but something isn't right. Button was ringing the neck of his tyres which is very un-Button like. Additionally in terms of outright pace a 1-2 second difference throughout the whole race though does not represent the actual difference in driver speed, Hamilton in quali is faster but in race trim they are fairly similar.

Clearly there is something else going on, and Button needs to get on top of this fast.

Congrats to Hamilton, thought for a split second around lap 50 that they had messed it up for him. One of the best races I've seen in a while. He really has sorted himself out since last year, no more complaining, just taking whatever the race gives him. If Mclaren can stop doing themselves over with stupid mistakes he can win this championship....Also its nice to see him finally thinking clearly behind the wheel. He is winning me back this year after the antics of last.

[beelsebob]

Didn't several of us say that Button and Hamilton ought to be at Mugello? - its came back to haunt them...well back to haunt Button to be clear.

I don't know what is going on with the car, but something isn't right. Button was ringing the neck of his tyres which is very un-Button like. Additionally in terms of outright pace a 1-2 second difference throughout the whole race though does not represent the actual difference in driver speed, Hamilton in quali is faster but in race trim they are fairly similar.

Clearly there is something else going on, and Button needs to get on top of this fast.

Congrats to Hamilton, thought for a split second around lap 50 that they had messed it up for him. One of the best races I've seen in a while. He really has sorted himself out since last year, no more complaining, just taking whatever the race gives him. If Mclaren can stop doing themselves over with stupid mistakes he can win this championship....Also its nice to see him finally thinking clearly behind the wheel. He is winning me back this year after the antics of last.

If you can, go back and watch practice for a few races in the past... Every weekend, Button starts slowly, looks rubbish in P1 and P2, in P3 begins to come good, in Q gets nearly there, and in the race is ready to go... This weekend, he dumped P1 and P2, and it hurt him, it meant that he looked rubbish is P3 and Q, and couldn't change anything for the race thanks to parc ferme... Basically, nothing to see here, move along.

[JimClarkFan]

Didn't several of us say that Button and Hamilton ought to be at Mugello? - its came back to haunt them...well back to haunt Button to be clear.

I don't know what is going on with the car, but something isn't right. Button was ringing the neck of his tyres which is very un-Button like. Additionally in terms of outright pace a 1-2 second difference throughout the whole race though does not represent the actual difference in driver speed, Hamilton in quali is faster but in race trim they are fairly similar.

Clearly there is something else going on, and Button needs to get on top of this fast.

Congrats to Hamilton, thought for a split second around lap 50 that they had messed it up for him. One of the best races I've seen in a while. He really has sorted himself out since last year, no more complaining, just taking whatever the race gives him. If Mclaren can stop doing themselves over with stupid mistakes he can win this championship....Also its nice to see him finally thinking clearly behind the wheel. He is winning me back this year after the antics of last.

If you can, go back and watch practice for a few races in the past... Every weekend, Button starts slowly, looks rubbish in P1 and P2, in P3 begins to come good, in Q gets nearly there, and in the race is ready to go... This weekend, he dumped P1 and P2, and it hurt him, it meant that he looked rubbish is P3 and Q, and couldn't change anything for the race thanks to parc ferme... Basically, nothing to see here, move along.

Disagree, he has been finding it harder and harder to qualify in high position recently. Sure there were factors in this race but even still he has been under performing in qualifying even before this weekend, and his race pace has been faltering as well ever since Bahrain like someone said above.

[myurr]

Jenson started going backwards significantly since Bahrain and his performances have literally kept going backwards on all fronts since then.

We're not even just talking about races here though are we?

Not only has Button been out of place on Sundays, he's been having to fight to get into Q3 and only scraped through with luck thanks to Maldonado this time or it would have been three out of three races he started outside the top ten.

There's a stark difference between being ahead of your team mate because he's ruining his own races despite having pace (Button v Hamilton in 2011), and being ahead of your team mate because he's consistently moving backwards every weekend and lacking pace in general, not just in the race, but in quali aswell.

Is he moving backwards? Take qualifying, he was only 0.3 seconds behind Hamilton in Q2. That has been the rough gap for most of the season, yet the field is so close that it was the difference between being comfortably in the top 10 and only just scraping it through someone else making a mistake.

His race pace was shocking in Canada but that could just be down to setup work. We know that Jenson isn't happy and is unable to extract performance when the car feels a little bit off. With the temperature changes and lost time it's perhaps not that surprising he struggled so much.

[Florio]

I think Hamilton also out-drove that McLaren on sunday also. Although he did wipe the floor with Button this weekend, I think the lack of running and Hamilton's obvious ability around Montreal only exaggerated Button's lack of pace.

[wesley123]

I think Hamilton also out-drove that McLaren on sunday also. Although he did wipe the floor with Button this weekend, I think the lack of running and Hamilton's obvious ability around Montreal only exaggerated Button's lack of pace.

He ended 17th, nothing to exaggarate about. The car is a challenger for wins and definetely podiums, Button should at least be able to score points. 17th is just way, way too far back

[GrizzleBoy]

Jenson started going backwards significantly since Bahrain and his performances have literally kept going backwards on all fronts since then.

We're not even just talking about races here though are we?

Not only has Button been out of place on Sundays, he's been having to fight to get into Q3 and only scraped through with luck thanks to Maldonado this time or it would have been three out of three races he started outside the top ten.

There's a stark difference between being ahead of your team mate because he's ruining his own races despite having pace (Button v Hamilton in 2011), and being ahead of your team mate because he's consistently moving backwards every weekend and lacking pace in general, not just in the race, but in quali aswell.

Is he moving backwards? Take qualifying, he was only 0.3 seconds behind Hamilton in Q2. That has been the rough gap for most of the season, yet the field is so close that it was the difference between being comfortably in the top 10 and only just scraping it through someone else making a mistake.

His race pace was shocking in Canada but that could just be down to setup work. We know that Jenson isn't happy and is unable to extract performance when the car feels a little bit off. With the temperature changes and lost time it's perhaps not that surprising he struggled so much.

Yes, Jenson is certainly moving backwards.

I could put it another way and say that people behind Button are moving forwards while he is not, but that's just another way of saying Jenson is moving backwards.

Being 0.3 seconds behind in Q2 doesn't really mean a lot as you only go as fast as you need to in Q2. Jenson used all his tyres to get 0.3 seconds behind someone who wasn't really pushing.

I'm not saying that the lack of setup time didn't hamper Jenson, I'm just saying that his performance on both Saturday and Sunday are on par with his recent form even without technical hitches and I'm doubting that it all came down to setup time as there is obviously something going on with him.

Even his engineer after the race in Canada, said something along the lines of "Okay Jenson, we're going to have to sit down and talk about this as this isn't what either of us needed today". It apparently wasn't aired, but the Sky team picked it up and commented on it.

It seems like even with a lack of running, the team still thought he should be doing better.

[sAx]

I think Hamilton also out-drove that McLaren on sunday also. Although he did wipe the floor with Button this weekend, I think the lack of running and Hamilton's obvious ability around Montreal only exaggerated Button's lack of pace.

He ended 17th, nothing to exaggarate about. The car is a challenger for wins and definetely podiums, Button should at least be able to score points. 17th is just way, way too far back

Fair point! If you can start dead last (Barcelona) and make the points, then as Perez similarly demonstrated yesterday, you can start from 15th and make the podium. Not that I would agree, but Villeneuve made the point that in his view JB is a better 'all round driver than LH'. If that is true, JB should be able to drive the socks off whatever he is given, regardless of ideal setup. Currently the finger seems to be pointing towards McLaren's race-engineering, which would require significant 'mission control' aberration to tweak him some 2secs off the race pace.

[GrizzleBoy]

Just to add to my post above, the exact words to Jenson via radio after the race were:

Well Jenson, there's not much we can say about that. We have to go back to base and really sit down and think about this because that's not what either of us needed.

[Red Schneider]

"Either of us" is not good language. Why didn't they use the word "we"? They're supposed to be together - one unit, or one family as Schumacher says. Win together, lose together.

They way they phrased that is very standoffish and impersonal. I don't know the whole story, but that sounds very bad to my ears. Black clouds ahead?

[JimClarkFan]

"Either of us" is not good language. Why didn't they use the word "we"? They're supposed to be together - one unit, or one family as Schumacher says. Win together, lose together.

They way they phrased that is very standoffish and impersonal. I don't know the whole story, but that sounds very bad to my ears. Black clouds ahead?

Agreed, they put that very badly, especially considering the guy is a world champion.

Mclaren in my view are one of worst managed teams out there at the minute, the amount of mistakes they are making at a decision making level (admittedly not this weekend), race planning, pit stop level and whole host of other mistakes is unbelievable. I don't think any other team have made the same amount of cock ups in the past two years as Mclaren have. Like Gary Anderson said on the BBC on Friday, missing two practice sessions for something surrounding a gear box is just not good enough, he has also criticized Mclarens ability to think on their feet in the past and I completely agree.