Time to ditch DRS?

[beelsebob]

Alonso earned his spot coming out of the pits on lap 20 in Canada (he passed both Lewis AND Seb by banging out quick laps). That very same lap Lewis caught him in the hairpin, Alonso backed him up and had easily three car lengths on him by the time they hit the DRS detection line. Six seconds after they crossed the activation line, Lewis had 20kph on him and blew by him like he was tied to the ground. Lewis didn't earn that pass. The same would be true if the roles were reversed. THAT is not racing, that's Mario Kart bullshit and DRS needs to be gotten rid of. There's no guarantee that Lewis wouldn't have eventually made up the speed difference by drafting Alonso, but Alonso backed him up at the hairpin to prevent Lewis from getting a jump on him and all it took for Alonso to lose two laps of really hard work was for Lewis to extend his finger a press a button. DRS is bullshit. No matter who is overtaking whom, it needs to go away.

Go rewatch it, Lewis is gaining fast, in the slipstream well before the DRS activation line. He would have had that pass done even without DRS. Alonso went well wide to try to stop it, but Lewis was wise to it, and went out wide to get a good run down the straight too.

Edit: I actually just went back and rewatched it. Alonso does not pull out several car lengths like you claim – in fact, Lewis gains on Alonso straight away out of the traction zone. He's in the slip stream from second 0 of the straight. The onboard from alonso shows that he's actually already well alongside when his DRS flap opens.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... eah38#t=9s

[Ray]

Edit: I actually just went back and rewatched it. Alonso does not pull out several car lengths like you claim – in fact, Lewis gains on Alonso straight away out of the traction zone. He's in the slip stream from second 0 of the straight. The onboard from alonso shows that he's actually already well alongside when his DRS flap opens.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... eah38#t=9s

Sorry, but you're wrong and that camera view gives a false impression. These screenshots are from the Sky coverage onboard Lewis' car that I've watched about 4 times in the last 10 minutes to make sure I wasn't seeing things. Here is a map of the DRS lines that were changed and they match up with the onboard video from Lewis' car.









Lewis did not earn that pass as it happened and it doesn't matter who was passing whom, the leader in that case legitimately earned his place and a simple push of a button greatly reduced maybe even negated the work of the guy behind. I'm not pissing on Lewis' parade, he and McLaren earned and deserved that win completely. DRS made it too easy for him to pass. Lewis was not catching Alonso until he opened his DRS and then he flew by like a rocket. He may have caught up at the end of the straight, but DRS basically handed him that pass on a platter. Lewis did nothing to negate the wide line that Alonso took because he lost easily 3 car lengths because he couldn't turn in further and Alonso got better traction off the corner and pulled those lengths on him.

[Ray]

snip

You and I seem to be talking about different laps. Maybe you misread my post. I said on lap 20 this happened. In the later laps he did get the drop on Alonso but had he not gotten past him easily with DRS on lap 20 who knows what would've happened.

[beelsebob]

snip

You and I seem to be talking about different laps. Maybe you misread my post. I said on lap 20 this happened. In the later laps he did get the drop on Alonso but had he not gotten past him easily with DRS on lap 20 who knows what would've happened.

My bad yeh, talking about the wrong pass. But, your images bear something important out... Hamilton is 20kph slower as he exits the corner. He's 0 kph slower when alonso crosses the DRS line, he's 1kph *faster* when he crosses the DRS line. He was already well and truely in a slipstream. Yes DRS helped him, but I'm pretty sure he would have passed even without it.

Okay so... some quick maths later...
when alonso is at the DRS line they're both doing 276km/h.
when hamilton is there, alonso is doing 277, hamilton 278.
They're separated by about 3 car lengths, so 15m ish.
This gives us a time delta of about 0.2 seconds, so we can establish that alonso is at this point accelerating at 5km/h/s, and hamilton at 10km/h/s.
Computing the integral of a_v = 74.17 + 1.378 * t; and h_v = 74.17 + 2.778 * t, and solving for the time to cover 600m (the length of the DRS zone) gives us alonso taking 7.6 seconds to cover the distance, and hamilton taking 7.2.
Hamilton will gain 0.4 seconds in the straight without DRS, and hence be 3 car lengths ahead at the chicaine.

This of course is all rather crude for a variety of reasons
1) The numbers are very imprecise, each driver might have been at 275.5km/h before, and 27(7|8).4 after, or vice versa, making the relative accelerations very different.
2) This doesn't account for the torque curves of the engines.
3) This doesn't account for hitting the rev limiter.
4) This doesn't account for the slip stream becoming stronger as you get closer.
5) KERS
6) probably some other stuff

But... what it does show is that the pass was on, even without DRS.

EDITED to make maths somewhere close to right.

[Ray]

snip

You and I seem to be talking about different laps. Maybe you misread my post. I said on lap 20 this happened. In the later laps he did get the drop on Alonso but had he not gotten past him easily with DRS on lap 20 who knows what would've happened.

My bad yeh, talking about the wrong pass. But, your images bear something important out... Hamilton is 20kph slower as he exits the corner. He's 0 kph slower when alonso crosses the DRS line, he's 1kph *faster* when he crosses the DRS line. He was already well and truely in a slipstream. Yes DRS helped him, but I'm pretty sure he would have passed even without it.

Yes he was level on speed at the DRS activation line, BUT he used his remaining half of KERS to do so while Alonso had just a sliver. Alonso's move into the hairpin did back him up enough to cause him to lose off corner drive and he only had KERS make up the speed deficit. I believe he had a very good chance of drafting and passing Alonso, but DRS basically handed him that place. Even with KERS he was only as fast as Alonso and no faster. The draft would've helped him, but DRS gave him the position.

[beelsebob]

Yes he was level on speed at the DRS activation line, BUT he used his remaining half of KERS to do so while Alonso had just a sliver. Alonso's move into the hairpin did back him up enough to cause him to lose off corner drive and he only had KERS make up the speed deficit. I believe he had a very good chance of drafting and passing Alonso, but DRS basically handed him that place. Even with KERS he was only as fast as Alonso and no faster. The draft would've helped him, but DRS gave him the position.

See my maths above, I come to roughly the same conclusion, he may have passed, he may not, but the pass was on. DRS certainly made this pass less interesting, but on the other hand, I'm not sure that outweighs the number of passes it makes possible in other circumstances. I'm also sure that this is simply a symptom of having the DRS zone in the wrong place.

[myurr]

But it also underlines how ridiculously difficult it is to pass in F1. Here are two drivers with a three second a lap pace differential (possibly more if Hamilton pulled out a qualifying style lap rather than drove to a target time), on a circuit with a nice long straight out of a slow hairpin, and we're still discussing if he would have made it pass. In these circumstances we should expect the overtake to be pretty easy as otherwise it would be totally impossible in even slightly less favourable conditions.

DRS is a lame and artificial solution, but is a necessary evil until someone comes up with a viable plan for fixing the underlying problem.

[beelsebob]

But it also underlines how ridiculously difficult it is to pass in F1. Here are two drivers with a three second a lap pace differential (possibly more if Hamilton pulled out a qualifying style lap rather than drove to a target time), on a circuit with a nice long straight out of a slow hairpin, and we're still discussing if he would have made it pass. In these circumstances we should expect the overtake to be pretty easy as otherwise it would be totally impossible in even slightly less favourable conditions.

At this point in the race they didn't have 3 secs a lap difference, we're talking about lap 20, where hamilton showed he was about 0.3 seconds a lap faster after passing.

[beelsebob]

So I just did a bit more maths and figured out what speed alonso would be doing when Hamilton drew level if DRS was not involved and all my assumptions were correct to verify my results... I get to Alonso being at 298km/h, while Hamilton would be doing 313km/h, at about 4.629s down the straight. This seems to suggest that my results are being a little cruel to alonso, as alonso is indeed doing that speed, indicating that my time down the straight is fairly accurate... But Hamilton is going 5km/h faster, indicating that I'm overestimating how much faster hamilton was accelerating pre-DRS activating. With that in mind, it would seem to suggest that without DRS they would be somewhere between dead level, and hamilton 3 car lengths ahead ariving at the chicaine.

[Ray]

You're math looks pretty good, to someone that sucks horribly at math anyway . I'm just going off my gut and without DRS I don't think Lewis would've had such an easy time passing Alonso. He had to use half a KERS charge just to match his speed at the DRS activation line and the relative straight line performance of the Ferrari versus the McLaren has been pretty close I believe. With the draft he would've gained a few mph but not enough that Alonso wouldn't have a fighting chance I don't think. And from what we've seen from Alonso this season, he's managing to get that Ferrari to do laptimes that it by all rights shouldn't be doing.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, but it's such a shame that overtaking has been reduced to pushing a button, no matter how few and far between DRS passes have occured for valuable positions. I'd rather have F-ducts back and I don't think they should've been banned. Having clever engineers and daredevil drivers that would use it only when they dare is more racecraft than hitting a button only when you're allowed to and only when it's approved by the governing body. Let the cars eat, let the drivers hang their ass out on the line for positions rather than have them ask for permission and have someone or some system grant it.

[myurr]

But it also underlines how ridiculously difficult it is to pass in F1. Here are two drivers with a three second a lap pace differential (possibly more if Hamilton pulled out a qualifying style lap rather than drove to a target time), on a circuit with a nice long straight out of a slow hairpin, and we're still discussing if he would have made it pass. In these circumstances we should expect the overtake to be pretty easy as otherwise it would be totally impossible in even slightly less favourable conditions.

At this point in the race they didn't have 3 secs a lap difference, we're talking about lap 20, where hamilton showed he was about 0.3 seconds a lap faster after passing.

Sorry, missed that crucial detail.

Hamilton was indeed 0.3 seconds a lap faster after passing, but then Alonso's tyres were up to temperature by that next lap. Coming out of the hairpin onto the straight his tyres were possibly still a little cool. By that time they should have been close, but it could have taken a lap and a half to fully get up to temperature so the times delta on subsequent laps isn't the whole story.

[sknguy]

I'd have to agree with Ray above. Even with drafting it would likely have been a close race to the chicane. In a non-drs race the key would have been the braking zone and positioning if the McLaren were to draw even. But with DRS there's really no need to push the car or the tires to try and catch, then try pressure your opponent into making a mistake. You just need to wait for the DRS zone. Regardless, Lewis did deserve the win at Canada and obviously pushed his McLaren even without DRS... and good on him. It's probably more because of circuits like Valencia that DRS was brought in. Is Wikipedia correct in this: "There have only been 4 recorded overtakes since the race was first held in 2008, with none of them in 2009." Every year I so don't look forward to the Valencia race.

[beelsebob]

I'd have to agree with Ray above. Even with drafting it would likely have been a close race to the chicane. In a non-drs race the key would have been the braking zone and positioning if the McLaren were to draw even. But with DRS there's really no need to push the car or the tires to try and catch, then try pressure your opponent into making a mistake. You just need to wait for the DRS zone. Regardless, Lewis did deserve the win at Canada and obviously pushed his McLaren even without DRS... and good on him. It's probably more because of circuits like Valencia that DRS was brought in. Is Wikipedia correct in this: "There have only been 4 recorded overtakes since the race was first held in 2008, with none of them in 2009." Every year I so don't look forward to the Valencia race.

Uhhuh... the good news is though... When Bernie was asked which races New York/Russia/South Africa would replace, he said "well... We'll have to look at who's contract is running out"... Based on that, the two scheduled for 2013 (New York and Russia) would replace Singapore (\o/) and Japan (/o\). The 2014 introduction of South Africa would replace... Valencia \o/

[raymondu999]

"There have only been 4 recorded overtakes since the race was first held in 2008, with none of them in 2009."

Well at least 1 was last year - Webber overtook Massa. 2 would be Kobayashi in 2010. That would leave 1 in 2008, which fits the description of "none in 2009," which would otherwise be "none in 2008 or 2009"

[f1316]

Just to go back to the DRS point: what the above - very interesting - analysis shows is that a close pass that was certainly on was turned into a slam dunk at that point of that track. I agree that, at other tracks where passing has previously been impossible, DRS has done its job in getting a *much* faster car that is out of position past a potential roadblock.

So what we're really talking about is DRS placement, and that comes back to the FIA's line that DRS is still a work in progress. However, the Montreal placement was ill-advised since this was always a possible passing place and you were always able to set up your car with less wing if you felt that would serve you well in the race. That straight in that race did not require DRS, and that had already been proven last year when Schumacher was a sitting duck to Webber under DRS but then stuck close behind him until the chequered flag - indicating a pretty close lap time differential.

So yeah, in summary, it's still a work in progress, but perhaps it needs to be less heavy handed on tracks of this nature. Approaching the hairpin might have been more interesting.