Pastor Maldonado

[Raptor22]

The same principal applies in all "racing incidents"

The car on the line has right of way. Its up to the passing driver to keep clear. The convention applied to Schumacher running into Senna in Barcelona. MIchael had to keep clear even though Senna made two moves. The point is the passing driver hs to keep clear of the driver being passed.
There are cases to be made like Turkey in 2010 when Webber drove straight to and Vettel had to follow the line of the road that would eventually result in a collision - it did.
Its cases like this where additional criteria have to be considered.
What fanbiys seem to be missing is that the racing is not a straight line. Its the shortest /fasterst point between two corners. On some "straights" thats going to mean a gentle drift from left to right or vise versa because not all straights are straight.
Fair drivers will always give just enough space to the passing driving. Hamilton was fair. He played the rules, and kept the racing line. Going into the corner he dictated the line. A smart driver trying to pass would back off once he realised he's lost the corner but Maltrap didn't back off. He considered it his right to keep his foot planted.
After Hamilton apexes he is moving to the right following the racing line and Maltrap would have had enough space to stay in the game. Instead he chose a bone head t-bone option instead.
Sure Hamilton could have backed off but they were on the penultimate lap and there was a chance of retaining his place since Maltrap tyres could have let go during the next lap.
However, all the thinking in the world doesn't really matter when you're dealing with Maldonado. He should have a great big "X" on the back of his helmet and rear wing for the rest of the season. Just they do with rookie karters

[stefan_]

^ Very correct. This explains the incident very good.

[FW17]

The same principal applies in all "racing incidents"

The car on the line has right of way. Its up to the passing driver to keep clear. The convention applied to Schumacher running into Senna in Barcelona. MIchael had to keep clear even though Senna made two moves. The point is the passing driver hs to keep clear of the driver being passed.
There are cases to be made like Turkey in 2010 when Webber drove straight to and Vettel had to follow the line of the road that would eventually result in a collision - it did.
Its cases like this where additional criteria have to be considered.
What fanbiys seem to be missing is that the racing is not a straight line. Its the shortest /fasterst point between two corners. On some "straights" thats going to mean a gentle drift from left to right or vise versa because not all straights are straight.
Fair drivers will always give just enough space to the passing driving. Hamilton was fair. He played the rules, and kept the racing line. Going into the corner he dictated the line. A smart driver trying to pass would back off once he realised he's lost the corner but Maltrap didn't back off. He considered it his right to keep his foot planted.
After Hamilton apexes he is moving to the right following the racing line and Maltrap would have had enough space to stay in the game. Instead he chose a bone head t-bone option instead.
Sure Hamilton could have backed off but they were on the penultimate lap and there was a chance of retaining his place since Maltrap tyres could have let go during the next lap.
However, all the thinking in the world doesn't really matter when you're dealing with Maldonado. He should have a great big "X" on the back of his helmet and rear wing for the rest of the season. Just they do with rookie karters

What you are essentially saying is that it is alright to run an opponent (even if it is PM) off the road. Both Drivers have a responsibility to give each other enough room for both to be on the track, I have been watching racing for enough to understand that. There were many passing on the track on Sunday and in all cases there was enough racing room, even in case of LH vs RG, which was exactly the same only thing in this case LH decides to run PM off the track.

If you go by your logic can you explain FM penalty in India last year when he got punted off by LH?

[Speedster]

The same principal applies in all "racing incidents"

The car on the line has right of way. Its up to the passing driver to keep clear. The convention applied to Schumacher running into Senna in Barcelona. MIchael had to keep clear even though Senna made two moves. The point is the passing driver hs to keep clear of the driver being passed.
There are cases to be made like Turkey in 2010 when Webber drove straight to and Vettel had to follow the line of the road that would eventually result in a collision - it did.
Its cases like this where additional criteria have to be considered.
What fanbiys seem to be missing is that the racing is not a straight line. Its the shortest /fasterst point between two corners. On some "straights" thats going to mean a gentle drift from left to right or vise versa because not all straights are straight.
Fair drivers will always give just enough space to the passing driving. Hamilton was fair. He played the rules, and kept the racing line. Going into the corner he dictated the line. A smart driver trying to pass would back off once he realised he's lost the corner but Maltrap didn't back off. He considered it his right to keep his foot planted.
After Hamilton apexes he is moving to the right following the racing line and Maltrap would have had enough space to stay in the game. Instead he chose a bone head t-bone option instead.
Sure Hamilton could have backed off but they were on the penultimate lap and there was a chance of retaining his place since Maltrap tyres could have let go during the next lap.
However, all the thinking in the world doesn't really matter when you're dealing with Maldonado. He should have a great big "X" on the back of his helmet and rear wing for the rest of the season. Just they do with rookie karters

I'm not going to defend Maldonado, because I do think he could've avoided the incident in my opinion. but Maldonado wasn't as reckless as I first thought. He should've backed off, but he didn't and ended up outside of the track, on the kerb. He didn't have steering, he wanted to go left quite early, before the corner, but his car went straight on. He took an unacceptable risk, but in my opinion it was less of a "let's push regardless what happens" than I first thought.

[Nando]

What you are essentially saying is that it is alright to run an opponent (even if it is PM) off the road

Yes, according to the rules there´s nothing that states you can´t choose your own line if you are on the inside.
Only in braking zones do you have to leave room.

It´s been like this for ages not sure why people are reacting to it now...

Maldonado/Grosjean in AUS, Grosjean did not surrender and got his front right tire ripped off.
Kimi/Webber in CHI, Kimi was smart, surrendered as soon as he saw it would not work.
Hamilton/Maldonado in EUR. Maldonado also smart but then dumb because he knows Curbs will lift up the car in the air.

[myurr]

I'm not going to defend Maldonado, because I do think he could've avoided the incident in my opinion. but Maldonado wasn't as reckless as I first thought. He should've backed off, but he didn't and ended up outside of the track, on the kerb. He didn't have steering, he wanted to go left quite early, before the corner, but his car went straight on. He took an unacceptable risk, but in my opinion it was less of a "let's push regardless what happens" than I first thought.

That's not strictly true. He ended up off track and then turned the car ending up aimed at that kerb. He was on a collision course before getting to the kerb, which effectively then took away his steering and stopped him then avoiding the collision. However he had already set the course.

At best he maybe thought he'd be able to keep running off track on the inside of Hamilton and then get him on corner exit and into the next corner. But then he would have gained an advantage by running off the track and would have had to have given the place back anyway. So either way he wasn't exactly showing racing intelligence and certainly caused an avoidable collision.

[Raptor22]

The same principal applies in all "racing incidents"

The car on the line has right of way. Its up to the passing driver to keep clear. The convention applied to Schumacher running into Senna in Barcelona. MIchael had to keep clear even though Senna made two moves. The point is the passing driver hs to keep clear of the driver being passed.
There are cases to be made like Turkey in 2010 when Webber drove straight to and Vettel had to follow the line of the road that would eventually result in a collision - it did.
Its cases like this where additional criteria have to be considered.
What fanbiys seem to be missing is that the racing is not a straight line. Its the shortest /fasterst point between two corners. On some "straights" thats going to mean a gentle drift from left to right or vise versa because not all straights are straight.
Fair drivers will always give just enough space to the passing driving. Hamilton was fair. He played the rules, and kept the racing line. Going into the corner he dictated the line. A smart driver trying to pass would back off once he realised he's lost the corner but Maltrap didn't back off. He considered it his right to keep his foot planted.
After Hamilton apexes he is moving to the right following the racing line and Maltrap would have had enough space to stay in the game. Instead he chose a bone head t-bone option instead.
Sure Hamilton could have backed off but they were on the penultimate lap and there was a chance of retaining his place since Maltrap tyres could have let go during the next lap.
However, all the thinking in the world doesn't really matter when you're dealing with Maldonado. He should have a great big "X" on the back of his helmet and rear wing for the rest of the season. Just they do with rookie karters

What you are essentially saying is that it is alright to run an opponent (even if it is PM) off the road. Both Drivers have a responsibility to give each other enough room for both to be on the track, I have been watching racing for enough to understand that. There were many passing on the track on Sunday and in all cases there was enough racing room, even in case of LH vs RG, which was exactly the same only thing in this case LH decides to run PM off the track.

If you go by your logic can you explain FM penalty in India last year when he got punted off by LH?

No thats not what I'm saying.... but its clearly what you wish to interpret.

its the passing drivers responsibility to keep clear and pass safely. In the curious case of Hamilton vs Maldonado, M should be saying to himself:" I have to get him in the braking zone. His tyres are shot so he may not even make the corner which means he takes us both off. So If I'm only alongside on turn in I give him the corner and get him at the next opportunity."

Both win.

However running a overtaking driver wide through corners has been a legitimate race tactic since racing began. If you're on the racing line you're not obliged to take yourself out of the race in order to assist the passing driver.
I don;t recal the Massa Hamilton incident in India. If yo wish to post a clip then it can be commented on.

[GrizzleBoy]

Its quite simple really.

Maldonado had space during the braking zone (aka where you are obliged to leave space).

However, his line through the corner meant he'd either have to turn sharply and drive into Hamilton, back off and quickly jump onto Hamiltons gear box or go off the track.

There was no gap for him. There was nowhere to go. He was forcing himself into a space that wasn't there unless you remove the driver who was on the racing line.

"Closing the door" is a defensive move that goes back decades......even in Canada, both Vettel and Alonso used this technique to make sure there was no space for Hamilton to get alongside them through the hairpin.

You position yourself in a way that keeps your car in a place where it has the right to be, but also slow down your opponent enough that he doesn't have momentum to shoot past as you're guaranteed to get on the power first.

It's a genuine defensive move. I dont understand how its a problem all of a sudden? If the opponent doesn't want to back off or expects you to yield, that's their business and its their responsibility to carry out any counter to your defensive move safely.

Maldonado did not do so. Simple as that.

Obviously, Lewis could have yielded, but he chose to defend his position. That's not an offence in racing, nor is it in any way at all, any kind of excuse to pardon someone who cant deal with it.

___________________________________________________________________________________________

The Ham v Massa case in India was totally different.

Hamilton had enough of his car beside Felipe to create a situation where if Felipe turned in on the racing line, he'd have to drive through Lewis to do so.

Unfortunately, that's exactly what he did. He attempted to cut through Lewis' car to proceed on the line.

It wasn't like they were jostling for position like last Sunday, Massa just swung in front and even if Hamilton tried to brake and back out of it, his front right was already in front (literally) of Massas rear left so he had nowhere to go but on the grass which would likely have caused even more loss of control anyway. Especially during unexpected harsh braking and an impending collision.

[MuseF1]

Another significant difference with the India incident is that the overtaker was alongside under breaking on the inside of the corner, whereas Maldonado was alongside but on the outside. The two incidents can't really be compared.

My view is that whilst LH could of given more room, he didn't have to and I believe even if room was given Pastor would probably still of hit him .

What I can't believe is that Senna was given a penalty. He already went to last place with the incident that in my view was not his fault.

Im sure that i saw during the race 3 marshalls pushing Vettels car away under green flags and not double waved yellows. so dangerous , i hope i am wrong

[Red Schneider]

Like I said, Hamilton has every right to do what he did, but since he lacks discretion this is what he gets.

Whitmarsh reckons Hamilton could have been more cautious against Maldonado
By Jonathan Noble Monday, June 25th 2012, 11:51 GMT

McLaren boss Martin Whitmarsh believes Lewis Hamilton should have been more cautious in handling his battle with Pastor Maldonado in the closing stages of the European Grand Prix.

Hamilton crashed out of the Valencia event after a clash with the Venezuelan driver as they battled for third on the penultimate lap - losing him vital points in the world championship standings.

Although the stewards said that Maldonado was to blame for the incident, and handed him a 20-second time penalty in lieu of a drive-hrough for what happened, that brought little consolation to Hamilton or his McLaren team.

But judging by the difficulties that Hamilton was having at the time of the incident with his tyres, and knowing how aggressive Maldonado is as a driver, Whitmarsh suspects that his man would have been better off giving his rival more room than other rivals he had fought with earlier in the event.

When asked if he thought Hamilton should have defended so hard, Whitmarsh said: "Clearly not, but you are dragging me into the conversation.

"In my mind, you saw him defend with [Romain] Grosjean and with [Kimi] Raikkonen, and he didn't do anything different with Maldonado. It was a different outcome, but he didn't do anything different with those drivers.

"My own view is that it was Maldonado's fault, and it is deeply frustrating – but he is a racing driver and that is it. I am sure in hindsight you have to say that dealing with someone like that you have to take a different approach, but you cannot anticipate it."

[tathan]

Hamilton closed the door (legitimately) on Maldonado, forcing him to either to slow right down or go off the circuit.

Since he chose the latter option... If you believe that Hamilton was to blame then you must believe that once Maldonado had left the circuit, Hamilton should have slowed/moved over to allow him to rejoin? i.e. Maldonado should have gained a place by leaving the circuit and rejoining ahead of Hamilton.

20.2 Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.
A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track.
Should a car leave the track the driver may rejoin, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage.

Obviously, Hamilton could have been more circumspect and not gotten involved in a wheel to wheel tussle with a certified lunatic, but that's not really his nature and you can't blame him for that.

[GrizzleBoy]

Titmarch should ZIP IT. He can´t even make sure pit stops and refuelling goes to plan. Now he has opinions on Hamilton´s driving, the only reason they have a mclaren still in the top 3 of the leaderboard.

Not to mention the only reason they've scored any significant points in the last how many races now, as well as the only reason they are ahead of Lotus in the constructors at the moment.

Not to mention the only reason Alonso emerged as race leader after Grosjean and Vettel retired was because their 14 second pit stop literally gave Alonso the track position.

The McLaren garage/pit crew/pit wall seem to have a habit of giving over positions to Alonso during stops this season.

[Nando]

Left rear - several times - Malaysia, China, Bahrain, Monaco? had a 5 second stop i believe.
keeping him out for too long - Australia
very poor strategy - Malaysia
underfuelled - Spain
bad strategy - Monaco
bad pit stop - Canada, turned out ok though.
two different front jacks fails on exactly the same day.

It´s like a game, "so what can we F up this time boys?"

[FW17]

What you are essentially saying is that it is alright to run an opponent (even if it is PM) off the road

Yes, according to the rules there´s nothing that states you can´t choose your own line if you are on the inside.
Only in braking zones do you have to leave room.

It´s been like this for ages not sure why people are reacting to it now...

Maldonado/Grosjean in AUS, Grosjean did not surrender and got his front right tire ripped off.
Kimi/Webber in CHI, Kimi was smart, surrendered as soon as he saw it would not work.
Hamilton/Maldonado in EUR. Maldonado also smart but then dumb because he knows Curbs will lift up the car in the air.

You like that dick steward should read section 20.4 of the regulations state –

Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted.

[Pup]

Left rear - several times - Malaysia, China, Bahrain, Monaco? had a 5 second stop i believe.
keeping him out for too long - Australia
very poor strategy - Malaysia
underfuelled - Spain
bad strategy - Monaco
bad pit stop - Canada, turned out ok though.
two different front jacks fails on exactly the same day.

It´s like a game, "so what can we F up this time boys?"

All of which puts Hamilton in the position of having to fight harder on track.

How different would it have been had Hamilton emerged as the leader after Vettel's retirement?

But none of that really has anything to do with Maldonado. The situation was what it was, and Maldonado's better move was to not force the situation on that particular corner. Even if he made the pass work, he'd have had to give it up since he went off track. He threw away a podium by making an utterly pointless move. Pure red mist and no more.