Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Raptor22 wrote:So you're suggesting a private organisation has more power of the constitutional rights of people than the government of a country WOW!!
I figured the gastapo was disbanded but it appears to be alive and well on F1Tech
They can
As a condition of my employment, I cannot say anything negative about my employer or bare any dirty laundry (if it did exist). If I broke that condition, I would be liable for termination from my employ. It's not about human rights or constitutional rights, it's about business. If you don't adhere to the rules, you get thrown out of the sandbox.
I still retain my constitutional rights to free speech, I could say anything I want, and not find myself in prison or at the receiving end of a firing squad. But my employer may not be pleased with my actions and words, and they may not wish to do business with me.
The FIA don't employee Sebastian Vettel... Red Bull Racing does.
I'm pretty sure Red Bull Racing has signed some sort of (Concorde) agreement with the FIA and others. No one forced Red Bull to sign it; they were free to do as they pleased. But, because they did, they have to abide my its rules.
No conspiracy or mystery there. It's just business (as usual).
You can see why Vettel and Red Bull feel there's a conspiracy.
40.3 The safety car may be brought into operation to neutralise a race upon the order of the clerk of the course. It will be used only if competitors or officials are in immediate physical danger but the circumstances are not such as to necessitate suspending the race.
Charlie Whiting (born 1952[1]) is FIA Formula One Race Director, Safety Delegate, Permanent Starter and head of the F1 Technical Department, in which capacities he generally manages the logistics of each F1 Grand Prix, inspects cars in Parc fermé before a race, enforces FIA rules, and controls the lights which start each race.
Charlie Whiting is paid by the FIA (so I believe), the FIA want a 'great show' - this is 100% true otherwise they wouldn't continually prevent domination by one team, so the decisions of the FIA will always bias towards ensuring the show is great - rather than watching one team (whoever that may be) continually blaze off into the sunset.
RB, just as any team who would be in that same position, would be justified in questioning those decisions. If the FIA had no pro-active abilities to be able to alter race results, whether by regulation changes (sometime mid-season) or through one off examples, then no-one could bring their motives into question and any vocal statement to the contrary by a driver or team, would indeed be un-called for.
It would be frustrating to continually (years) have your attempt at winning a race come under scrutiny and have rules changed to stop you from doing it, year to year. Does it excuse Vettel's behaviour? A one off, no, but this is happening on a continual basis and does seem to focus on him NOT winning another WC - as that would be boring (as stated in many news publications). He's human, he has emotions, he probably feels unfairly picked on simply because of the car he's in and he's probably right.
Put yourself in his position. He's found himself in a great car with a great team and he's winning races. It's every, and I mean every, drivers dream. Now you have almost all the media, the promoter, the governing body, the tyre supplier and every other team trying got stop you from winning more. Give the guy some slack.
The race director, Charlie Whiting, is not the clerk of the course. They're two different jobs.
F1.com wrote:Four of the six officials are nominated by the FIA. These are the race director (currently Charlie Whiting), a permanent starter and two additional stewards, one of whom is nominated chairman. The additional stewards must be FIA Super Licence holders and must not be of the same nationality as the race organisers.
The other two key officials are nominated by the National Sporting Authority (ASN) of the country holding the race. These are the clerk of the course and an additional steward (who must be a national of the host nation). Both must be FIA Super Licence holders.
There's no conspiracy. Vettel needlessly mouthed off and then got a slap on the wrist. It happens.
But, see, there's no Red Bull/Vettel point of view to look at with regard to the safety car and his retirement, because the two were completely unrelated. Safety car or no safety car, his alternator would've died and knocked him out of the race regardless. In fact, according to Renault, the safety car period actually prolonged his race.
As I've said before, Vettel's a 24-year-old kid who's known far more success than failure and drives in an era of F1's history in which retirements are rare rather than the norm. Eventually, he'll learn that these things simply happen from time to time, and he won't immediately look to blame them on (non-existent) nefarious forces. (EDIT: I should point out that I don't hold his inexperience with these issues against him.)
The real mystery here is why Helmut Marko, in his infinite whatever-it-is, agreed with Vettel after the fact. That's unhealthy homer-ism, if you ask me. But, it also seems to be on par with a disconcertingly large number of Vettel supporters.
Last edited by bhall on 06 Jul 2012, 04:18, edited 1 time in total.
bhallg2k wrote:But, see, there's no Red Bull/Vettel point of view to look at with regard to the safety car and his retirement, because the two were completely unrelated. Safety car or no safety car, his alternator would've died and knocked him out of the race regardless. In fact, according to Renault, the safety car period actually prolonged his race.
As I've said before, Vettel's a 24-year-old kid who's known far more success than failure and drives in an era of F1's history in which retirements are rare rather than the norm. Eventually, he'll learn that these things simply happen from time to time, and he won't immediately look to blame them on (non-existent) nefarious forces. (EDIT: I should point out that I don't hold his inexperience with these issues against him.)
The real mystery here is why Helmut Marko, in his infinite whatever-it-is, agreed with Vettel after the fact. That's unhealthy homer-ism, if you ask me. But, it also seems to be on par with a disconcertingly large number of Vettel supporters.
bhallg2k, I agree with you regarding his car failures. I never question that and to me his car failure is a side issue.
RB and Vettel questioned the FIA's decision (and hence reason) to bring out a safety car and their suggested reasoning was to 'break their necks'. When put in context with the FIA constantly changing regulations (sometimes mid season) to restrict leading cars (including RB, but not solely) then it does seem warranted - to question those kind of decisions by the FIA. It would also explain the obvious frustration they are all in and the outbursts.
I'm no Vettel fan. I'm simply commenting on a situation which seems clear and would also suggest it no matter the driver.
I understand your point, and I wasn't really directing the "Vettel supporter" thing at you or anyone specifically. It's just something I've noticed in general.
Safety cars are deployed from time to time in F1, and it happens more often around street circuits where there's little to no run-off. Vettel had no problem getting away from the field at the start of the race, nor did he have a problem staying there. Thus, there was no reason for anyone to think the safety car would ultimately hinder his performance. He was in line for the win.
But, his car failed him, and he lashed out in frustration. That much is understandable. The way he lashed out, on the other had, was really quite laughable.
Given that safety cars in 2011 almost ALWAYS seemed to favour "lucky" Vettel and that the first safety car of the year gifted him second place in Melbourne, its kind of ironic to now see him biting back at the very thing which helped him out many a time.
bear in mind the comments wre made before Red Bull knew the nature of the failure. At the time they thought it could be safety car related due to the slow running.
It is entirely plausible that they could have been monitoring the problem for some time and someone noticed this and informed Ferrari who used some influence of the race organisers to use the safety car the moment it remotely suitable since there was the opportunity for Alonso to get back in the fight.
Beneficiary,Spanish driver, on a Spanich race track run by Spanish folk in fron tof Spnaish Fans...
This would not be the first time some nationalism has crept into politics to influence a result. Pure speculation but well within the realms of possibility and I believe thisis what Red Bull are really alluding too
Heat of the moment thing. Everyone had them, black or hispanic
While Vettel's comments were not very realistic, some of the claims made here aren't either. Why does it seem impossible for some people to make argument without making stuff up.
bhallg2k wrote:As I've said before, Vettel's a 24-year-old kid who's known far more success than failure and drives in an era of F1's history in which retirements are rare rather than the norm.
How does a driver who had his championship fights affected by not-his-fault-retirements more than any other driver "known far more success than failure"? The fact he kept his head cool in late 2010 despite everything that had and kept going wrong, is admirable if anything.
GrizzleBoy wrote:Given that safety cars in 2011 almost ALWAYS seemed to favour "lucky" Vettel and that the first safety car of the year gifted him second place in Melbourne, its kind of ironic to now see him biting back at the very thing which helped him out many a time.
I hope you realize that you just made that up right? There were 8 safety cars in 2011, 2 of which MAY have gained him a total of 9 points, yet 5 safety cars that completely diminished his lead of which one that cost him 7 points.
2011:
There were 2 safety cars in Monaco. Arguably, though only arguably consider all three front-runners were on worn-out tyres, the second safety car -or actually the red flag- may have helped Vettel, but the first one cut his lead in the first place. Overall no safety car advantage in that race.
In Canada, it hurt Vettel that the Safety car kept cutting his lead. Even one less safety car would have meant Button would not have been on his tail in the final laps.
In Belgium, the safety car did not benefit nor damage Vettel.
In Italy, a safety car in lap 1. The entire field was still together anyway, so it didn't benefit anyone.
In Singapore, again a safety car that removed Vettel's lead.
In Japan, Hamilton was damaged by the safety car, but whether he would have finished in front of Vettel is uncertain.
In Korea, again a safety car that removed Vettel's lead.
The safety car in Australia 2012 only seems to have favored Vettel if you weren't following Live Timing. Vettel was putting in some super fast laps to jump Hamilton, and saw the number of laps he had to pull that off reduced by the safety car. Not being unlucky is different than being lucky.
In case you're were wondering, Cam, this is what I was talking about.
mnmracer wrote:How does a driver who had his championship fights affected by not-his-fault-retirements more than any other driver "known far more success than failure"? The fact he kept his head cool in late 2010 despite everything that had and kept going wrong, is admirable if anything.
You're absolutely right. It was silly of me to fail to recognize that Vettel's 14 retirements are far more representative of his career than the 22 wins, 33 poles and two World Championships.
bhallg2k wrote:In case you're were wondering, Cam, this is what I was talking about.
mnmracer wrote:How does a driver who had his championship fights affected by not-his-fault-retirements more than any other driver "known far more success than failure"? The fact he kept his head cool in late 2010 despite everything that had and kept going wrong, is admirable if anything.
You're absolutely right. It was silly of me to fail to recognize that Vettel's 14 retirements are far more representative of his career than the 22 wins, 33 poles and two World Championships.
Thank you for correcting me.
Nice, albeit ultimately failed attempt at sarcasm.
And calling someone out on fabricating realities is not "what you're talking about".
Michael Schumacher's 91 race wins, 76 fastest laps, 68 pole positions and seven World Championships are also the most representative of his career, but that doesn't mean he hasn't faced faillure in his career or doesn't know how to overcome it. Similarly for Fernando, who has thrown even bigger tantrums when things didn't go his way. It's part of the sport.
