Is Vettel overrated? What do you think

[PlatinumZealot]

If Vettel had the exact same 2010/2011 results in an HRT, would people just stay that HRT is not a bad car?

Yes.

Even if we were to rewind history to 2011, and keep the cars identical race by race, and Vettel achieved the results he did in an HRT, the car would then be a "good car." That's my point - nowadays there's no way to know where car ends and driver starts... if that makes sense

It's almost like how the 2005 mclaren made Kimi "the quickest driver" over one lap.

[RB7ate9]

Something that fascinated me (and please forgive me for not providing the direct source) was that it was either Horner or Newey that actually stated that the RB7 wasn't as dominant as the RB6 in their opinion. In a way, that tells something about Vettel's talent and whether or not he is overrated.

To consider 2010, where both Vettel and Mark Webber were able to get race wins (if one wants to discount things like Vettel's early DNFs and his SC gaff in Hungary, one cannot deny Webber's clear wins in Spain, Monaco, and Hungary), that is a mark of a really great car. Much like the MP4/4 where Senna and Prost were able, together, to dominate the season, the RB6 was adaptable to MW/SV's driving styles. With that in mind, the extra effort needed to overcome your teammate in a comparable car as well as the other person that isn't bothered with such issues (Alonso) must bear out some appreciation of skill.

Meanwhile, in 2011, it was very apparent that the car/tires suited only one of the drivers and, while able to pull away from the front, the RB7 had issues fighting through the field during the race. Considering the possibility that the RB7 was designed to be a permanent pole-sitting lights-to-flag car, seeing Vettel put the car out to overtake means something for his skill in the car.

This year, there have been false starts and hiccups, but he has still won and nearly won another. Is he fast? Absolutely. To state anything to the contrary is utter denial. Is he better than Alonso? I think not. "El Lobo" has shown the other marks of a great driver: skill in a less-capable car, consistency, and car development. Is Vettel overrated? No. Just because he hasn't slung a brick around Copse for the win doesn't mean he isn't worth his salt. Anyone can drive a really good car fast. It's that he has driven against other drivers in fast cars and kept pushing throughout the season that shows he's one worth keeping around.

[raymondu999]

Something that fascinated me (and please forgive me for not providing the direct source) was that it was either Horner or Newey that actually stated that the RB7 wasn't as dominant as the RB6 in their opinion. In a way, that tells something about Vettel's talent and whether or not he is overrated.

I think their point was that their margin in terms of laptime over the field wasn't as much as they had in 2010, which I would agree with. Poles would come out of 3 tenths to a second in 2010, and generally was maybe 1-3 tenths in 2011.

When I "revived" the thread I was just looking to get a feel for how people's opinions have changed since his Spa crash (the last reply to this thread pre-revival was before Monza 2010, after Spa 2010).

I wonder. In a season so close where pole generally is by a whisker, how would people's perception change again if Vettel won the title? I guess we'll have to wait until then to see.

[RB7ate9]

Ah. We, indeed, must wait and see. For it is not the win that matters, it is the manner in which he wins.

Edit: Though winning the championship is a pretty big deal, too!

[raymondu999]

Yeh.

I think one of the issues with people's perception of Vettel is that his wins look easy.

Just because something LOOKS easy doesn't mean it is... of course, it doesn't mean it's difficult either. At the end of the day how easy or difficult something looks really has no bearing on how difficult or easy it actually was...

[bhall]

You obviously don't watch the races. The only reason Button beat Hamilton in 2011 was because Hamilton was crashing into Massa Maldonado Kobayashi etc because he was on the limit... win or nothing. And guess what? He never lost any speed, he still got wins, he still got poles. That year was nothing to say Hamilton is not top draw... Infact it shows how good he is! 2011! Not many drivers have a Horrible year like that and still finish equal with team mate, and same wins. That is how magnaminious the talent of Hamilton is.

[...]

I don't understand this. Why is it laudable when a driver pushes to his own detriment? Should we sing the praises of someone who jumps out of a plane without a parachute because he thinks he can fly?

[Hail22]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ko94oniszuA[/youtube]

Spoken by a genius...I'm not saying Vettel is like him by far, neither is anyone on the grid...this video is just beautifully logical.

[RB7ate9]

Yeh.

I think one of the issues with people's perception of Vettel is that his wins look easy.

Just because something LOOKS easy doesn't mean it is... of course, it doesn't mean it's difficult either. At the end of the day how easy or difficult something looks really has no bearing on how difficult or easy it actually was...

But of course!

Which leads me to think that perhaps the reason people feel Vettel is overrated is that he doesn't have the same opponents on his level (i.e. other drivers are in poor cars). This is counter to 2009, when he/Webber/Red Bull were challenging for race wins from Button/Barrichello/Brawn, and 2010 when it was really all over the place and Alonso was going to win heading into Abu Dhabi.

I'm going to call it: Vettel is not overrated. In 2009/2010 he fought hard races, maximized good cars against comparable teams/teammates. In 2011, he made everything dialed in. A good racer does that. This year, things didn't start as smoothly, but Valencia and Silverstone showed he has pace (considering the damaged FW he had). His title is under threat, but he isn't taking it lying down.

To the arguments against him:
He doesn't "race" against other drivers: There is video evidence to the contrary and he also has become smarter about it (since Turkey's crash and Hungary's rookie f-up).
He is only good leading from the front: Most driver/car pairings are, with clean air and track. What that kid did in 2011 to whip the RB7 with 1s per lap leads, though, is astounding.
He isn't as good as Alonso/Ham/Webber/Senna/Todt/Rindt/etc: Granted, Alonso is the best driver on the grid at the moment, but considering that Vettel has outraced Alonso before (see the first point), that's saying a lot.

If Vettel continued to struggle with tires/strategy/pace with the RB8 and Webber sailed off into the sunset, then I would consider Vettel overrated. Because he has done the contrary, I will tout him as a valuable driver and potential three-time WDC. He's got a long road ahead of him though...

[bhall]

[...]

To the arguments against him:
He doesn't "race" against other drivers: There is video evidence to the contrary and he also has become smarter about it (since Turkey's crash and Hungary's rookie f-up).
He is only good leading from the front: Most driver/car pairings are, with clean air and track. What that kid did in 2011 to whip the RB7 with 1s per lap leads, though, is astounding.
He isn't as good as Alonso/Ham/Webber/Senna/Todt/Rindt/etc: Granted, Alonso is the best driver on the grid at the moment, but considering that Vettel has outraced Alonso before (see the first point), that's saying a lot.

[...]

And Webber beats him every time, without exception, whenever Red Bull has a problem with rear-end grip.

(In case you're wondering, I say Webber beat Vettel at Silverstone last year even though the results don't reflect that.)

[Cam]

YOUTUBE

Spoken by a genius...I'm not saying Vettel is like him by far, neither is anyone on the grid...this video is just beautifully logical.

Ahh Hail22, I so want to give to a +1.

I wonder what Senna would have done if he knew he had to nurse the tyres and run to a lap time to save fuel? I have a guess.

Vettel is a great driver. RB tailored the car to suit his 'jam on the throttle' style and he cleaned up. He did exactly what was asked. How is that not good? He's young and has lot's to learn. Time will tell if he will be 'great' or just 'good'. The fact that Webber nails him when the car is so-so does go against him. But Webber and Alonso have years on him. In that context, so far, so good for the young man.

[RB7ate9]

And Webber beats him every time, without exception, whenever Red Bull has a problem with rear-end grip.

(In case you're wondering, I say Webber beat Vettel at Silverstone last year even though the results don't reflect that.)

Which is why I am a big fan of the Aussie grit! But, considering that things are improving in Vettel's little corner (bar the alternator in Valencia) in terms of pace, that he is managing to adapt with the lack of glue-level grip is a sign that he is worth his salt, rather than just falter further and further back (a la Button). This may be a sign that he is aiding the car development as well; this cannot be overlooked when judging a driver's F1 capabilities.

And really, Webber just needs four wheels, Doctor's orders! http://en.espnf1.com/redbull/motorsport ... 76110.html

[bhall]

That said, Webber got the best of Vettel in Monaco and obviously at Silverstone. The Monaco win is fairly easy to put in perspective given the RB8's exhaust situation that weekend and the way in which the two drivers have historically fared with such challenges. However, Webber's superiority over Vettel during the last race is an outlier to previous results. Webber beat Vettel when the latter had a package that should have favored him.

I think one thing most can agree on is that Vettel is probably the most difficult driver to rate in F1. He is capable of, and has regularly demonstrated, staggering speed. At the same time, though, he's shown himself to have difficulty displaying that speed under less than ideal conditions, even though his teammate has often taken those same conditions with the same car and blossomed. Those two traits stand in such stark contrast to each other that it's hard to know which is the more accurate representation.

Part of that's human nature, I suppose. We all can stand and applaud a driver who uses the tools he's been given to do exactly what he's supposed to do with them. But, we tend to be positively riveted by a driver who uses the tools he's been given to do something no one thought possible. Vettel has tons of experience with the former, virtually none with the latter and can't really be faulted for either.

[Cam]

...Vettel is probably the most difficult driver to rate in F1.

Actually, that's probably the single best way to sum him up.

[raymondu999]

Webber's superiority over Vettel during the last race is an outlier to previous results.

I disagree. Silverstone, similar to Spain, is a Webber specialty track (in terms of pace). In 2009 had it not been for Kimi messing Webber's line into Stowe, he probably would've nabbed pole. In 2010 they were close. Vettel only ended 7th, but a large part of that was down to his puncture, rather than Vettel only being 7th fastest on the day. 2011 Webber was quicker than Vettel just about every step of the way, except for intermediate conditions, where it has to be said Vettel was fantastic in 2011 Silverstone (8.5s gap in something like 6 laps?)

My point is - on pace, Webber is generally the quicker driver in Silverstone.

[bhall]

They've both had very similar results at Silverstone over the last few years, and you're right, Webber has generally fared a little better. But, my point was mainly about the RB8's package at Silverstone this year. It was the first race that I can remember where Webber was clearly ahead of his teammate even though, by all accounts, the car was perfectly fine. That's usually not the case when Webber is the better driver.