Lotus E20 Renault

[Coefficient]

A bigger question is whether or not they'd like to try messing with the exhaust after the mess they got to in 2011, and how they've fared so well without it.

Well at some point i think they need to try a new exhaust, atleast just try to see if its better or not, cause looking at the rest of the field its a little like the stepped nose, everyone having the same except mclaren and marussia, and that obv proved to be a mistake, but this exhaust isnt a mistake but i think they do want to try it for some experience for next years car cause i do believe mclaren style and ramp style is better then their current one, maybe not on this car but next year its prob gonna be on every car.

It might be but I'm half expecting to see a tightening of the regulations to mandate simpler exhaust solutions.

[Huntresa]

A bigger question is whether or not they'd like to try messing with the exhaust after the mess they got to in 2011, and how they've fared so well without it.

Well at some point i think they need to try a new exhaust, atleast just try to see if its better or not, cause looking at the rest of the field its a little like the stepped nose, everyone having the same except mclaren and marussia, and that obv proved to be a mistake, but this exhaust isnt a mistake but i think they do want to try it for some experience for next years car cause i do believe mclaren style and ramp style is better then their current one, maybe not on this car but next year its prob gonna be on every car.

It might be but I'm half expecting to see a tightening of the regulations to mandate simpler exhaust solutions.

Why ? The evolution of the exhaust for this year has been amazing and in no way has it taken anything away from F1 or from what FIA wanted, FIA wanted to get rid of the excessive amount of downforce last years exhaust created and the dmg the mapping could have done to the engines, from a cost perspective.

This years exhaust are marvelous designs + the tunnel from Red Bull, and it does maybe 10% of what last years exhaust did, so its totally fine.

If FIA wants exhaust to not do anything they should make them point straight up, like in Indy Car, but i dont like that cause i think there should be some freedom within in the rules and thats what this year is.

[madly]

Well at some point i think they need to try a new exhaust, atleast just try to see if its better or not, cause looking at the rest of the field its a little like the stepped nose, everyone having the same except mclaren and marussia, and that obv proved to be a mistake, but this exhaust isnt a mistake but i think they do want to try it for some experience for next years car cause i do believe mclaren style and ramp style is better then their current one, maybe not on this car but next year its prob gonna be on every car.

I don't think they spend time on basic concept car change.

Why should they change exhaust? Mind you they are before McL and near Ferrarri in WCC even if they lost many WCC points by Grosjean's multiple DNF's.

They have car good on all tracks, easy on tires, predictable in setup, fast in race. They need to improve one lap results and they won't loose precious resources 'just for try'.

I wonder if they will try 'DRS enabled aero devices' in Hockenheim. Alisson was very active in MGP DDRS protest to ensure FIA clarify, what is legal here and commented results of clarification as 'a very interesting development possibilities'.

[hardingfv32]

Why ? The evolution of the exhaust for this year has been amazing and in no way has it taken anything away from F1 or from what FIA wanted....

I am not sure the smaller teams would agree. If in fact the correct solution has been found, it has taken the front teams half the seasons to find it. The cost cutting goal is to eliminate avenues of development like this to make life simpler for the smaller teams.

Brian

[hardingfv32]

What benefit the Helmholtz chambers give......

Yeah... a smoothening of the transition to make the cars more equal-handling on and off throttle.

No one has provided a valid theory about how a Helmholtz chamber helps with off throttle flow. It is a myth! The small chambers (reservoirs?) that you are talking about represent a miniscule volume when relayed to the normal exhaust flow.

Brian

[marcush.]

What benefit the Helmholtz chambers give......

Yeah... a smoothening of the transition to make the cars more equal-handling on and off throttle.

No one has provided a valid theory about how a Helmholtz chamber helps with off throttle flow. It is a myth! The small chambers (reservoirs?) that you are talking about represent a miniscule volume when relayed to the normal exhaust flow.

Brian

I think it could well be it does erase or flatten some pulses probably...making the exhaust plume more useable as the fluctuations and peaks are mellowed?

[Huntresa]

Why ? The evolution of the exhaust for this year has been amazing and in no way has it taken anything away from F1 or from what FIA wanted....

I am not sure the smaller teams would agree. If in fact the correct solution has been found, it has taken the front teams half the seasons to find it. The cost cutting goal is to eliminate avenues of development like this to make life simpler for the smaller teams.

Brian

Half a season ? Its only Red Bull that didnt get the tunnel to work, the ramp exhaust always worked.

Mclaren had design in winter test, so did Red Bull, sauber went ramp then mclaren at mugello, toro rosso and force india tried mclaren at mugello then shortly after raced it, caterham also tried new exhaust at mugello and brought it as on scheduele i assume to silverstone as their big package.

And looking at that it seems even small teams can develop a new exhaust, and that in a time span of 4 races, not half a season.

[hardingfv32]

I think it could well be it does erase or flatten some pulses probably...making the exhaust plume more useable as the fluctuations and peaks are mellowed?

Expand... You think that smoother pulsation in the exhaust flow make for better aero performance? This of coarse comes at the expense of engine performance which requires the strongest pulses possible.

Brian

[hardingfv32]

Half a season ? Its only Red Bull that didnt get the tunnel to work, the ramp exhaust always worked.....
And looking at that it seems even small teams can develop a new exhaust, and that in a time span of 4 races, not half a season.

The small teams have just started the process of developing the new exhaust. Look how long Ferrari and RB are taking once the basic layout is decided on. The small teams are just copying the basic concept at this point, they have a lot of details to still develop. And we still can not differentiate exhaust design benefits from tire management success. How do we know that RB's resent success is not just better tire management?

Brian

[Huntresa]

Half a season ? Its only Red Bull that didnt get the tunnel to work, the ramp exhaust always worked.....
And looking at that it seems even small teams can develop a new exhaust, and that in a time span of 4 races, not half a season.

The small teams have just started the process of developing the new exhaust. Look how long Ferrari and RB are taking once the basic layout is decided on. The small teams are just copying the basic concept at this point, they have a lot of details to still develop. And we still can not differentiate exhaust design benefits from tire management success. How do we know that RB's resent success is not just better tire management?

Brian

Ive never said anything about performance of the diff exhausts, only thing i said in the first post was that i think everyone net year unless they change the rules will have an exhaust like mclaren or the ramp one, as i think its the same as the stepped nose as i said in the post.

You are right we cant know why RB is better, its prob not one thing cause most of the time it isnt one thing, its a mix of diff things.

But what we do know about the exhausts are that both mclaren and ramp are used to some extent to seal the diffuser, which in all camps should be a good thing, and thats why i think its a thing every car will have next year.

I also have to agree with ppl saying that Lotus are doing fine without the exhausts styles of Mclaren or Red Bull, but as i mentioned in my first post, i think they should test one of them atleast, cause as the season rolls on you wont have as much development as in the beginning and that is cause firstly you run out of stuff to improve, which means at some point you will have to develop exhausts if you wanna develop anything and 2nd focus shifts to next years car, and its always good to have data for next years car aswell, if you plan on running for example one of these exhausts.

[madly]

@Huntresa
Still, question is why to change exhaust? Nobody knows if exhaust rules will be tightened or not in 2013. Moreover FIA wanted to completely disable EBD style exhausts and probably will close this years holes.

To try solution you can't develop it 'half way', so you must put enough resources to implement new solution as production system. Did TR or FI closed gap between Lotus and them using new exhaust?

Still I think that you can't separate exhaust from the whole car package. And it's rather big, fundamental change.

[Huntresa]

I do mention the possibility of rule changes, and i can agree to a certain extent that exhausts have an impact on the car or rather not an impact which is the case of the Lotus, when its in a quite neutral position and the flow goes to pretty neutral area not intefering with anything else.

And no TR and FI didnt close the gap, but has anyone the last year in a season closed a gap, except for Ferrari in 10 and this year ? Most teams just maintain the gap, makes sure it doesnt grow bigger, and you do that via updates, TR and FI obv went the exhaust route, but im not saying Lotus should race it, just test it, you cant know something until you have tested it, especially exhausts since its harder to do in Windtunnel or CFD, unless im wrong about that, plz feel free to corret me.


TL;DR I think they should test new stuff, exhaust being in the new stuff department

[Coefficient]

[quote=It might be but I'm half expecting to see a tightening of the regulations to mandate simpler exhaust solutions.[/quote]

Why ? The evolution of the exhaust for this year has been amazing and in no way has it taken anything away from F1 or from what FIA wanted, FIA wanted to get rid of the excessive amount of downforce last years exhaust created and the dmg the mapping could have done to the engines, from a cost perspective.

This years exhaust are marvelous designs + the tunnel from Red Bull, and it does maybe 10% of what last years exhaust did, so its totally fine.

If FIA wants exhaust to not do anything they should make them point straight up, like in Indy Car, but i dont like that cause i think there should be some freedom within in the rules and thats what this year is.[/quote]

Well, during pre season testing Charlie Whiting commented that he wasn't happy with some team's interpretations of the exhaust regs and would be considering a revision to the tech regs to more accurately achieve the desired exhaust format. I haven't heard anything since to suggest he's changed his position on this.

Also, with all the itterations of exhaust layout and the associated bodywork that teams have brought they are clearly spending huge sums of money on developing this area of the car. The rule change was originally made in part to cut costs but all it has done is sent the R&D down a different path. It seems ridiculous to spend as much money as on EBD, perhaps more on something that has 10% of the benefit.

[Huntresa]

This has prob gone offtopic by now but you cant stop spending when you have regulations like F1 has had and have today, where everybody interpets everything differently and develops stuff that might or might not get banned later, like Red Bulls brake/wheel hubs at Canada, thats wasting money at its core, but it was prob worth it for those extra points it gave, if it gave anything.

Aslong as they are allowed to build diff cars, spending will continue, it might be able to be maintained at a certain lvl, but they havent been able to push it down to that lvl yet.

[alogoc]

There are rumors going around that Mclaren and Lotus will have heavily redesign sidepods area in Germany!

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