This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
marcush. wrote:I am yet to see any 'great' ideas from the 3 back markers. Perhaps that is where they fail. They play catch up by copying rather than blazing a new trail. Innovating can be a strategy which may leave them last though..... or it could propel them up the order. Let's see an 'amazing' bit of gear of the car.
I see what you're saying, but this year more than any other (recent) year, I think we saw that a car with good fundamentals could be really competitive without the need for anything fancy. There was no magic bullet this year - no double diffuser, EBD etc. - and a car such as the Lotus has been possibly the most consistently quick all tracks thanks only to a good, solid design.
So I think that was a chance for the new cars to play catch-up, in the same way as the midfield cars were able to all but catch up the top 3/4 teams. Rather than missing any innovation, I think the above post about them lacking refinement is the issue. If you look at the car it's not missing anything obvious - even got KERS this year and under the skin the renault/rb bits are obviously top-notch - but when you look more closely something like the launch front wing stands out as being a fair way off what the top teams are producing.
I'm impressed with their rate of development though, and with any luck they'll understand the Silverstone updates better at the next race, which should give them some laptime. In saying that, I'm always surprised that the STR car isn't faster because it has some really nice parts, so I also wouldn't be surprised if the goal posts moved a bit soon...
I am yet to see any 'great' ideas from the 3 back markers. Perhaps that is where they fail. They play catch up by copying rather than blazing a new trail. Innovating can be a strategy which may leave them last though..... or it could propel them up the order. Let's see an 'amazing' bit of gear of the car.[/quote]
Couldn't agree more......... They do have some clever people in the team, so I too am puzzled as to why they seem to be flatlined and going nowhere in a hurry?
Copying is one thing, but in doing so, do you really understand the concept of the person who originally came up with the idea? I think that there is too much *follow the leader* and copy others in F1 today anyway and alot less innovation from the teams.
I don't think Caterham have been doing badly, as much as the midfield has been doing really well. I feel like the midfield is REALLY solid this year, unlike other years. Caterham have been advancing quickly for a new team, but they just can't keep up. Also, the current high reliability is making the new teams look bad. Karthikayan set 2 records this year for worst F1 finishes in history, he got a 23 and then a 24. The idea of every car on the grid 10 years ago would have been astounding. If the midfield would break down more often Caterham would have their maiden point.
This is really one of the true mysteries in F1 at the moment to my humble mind, Mike Gascoyne/Mark Smith usually thrives in situations like this, moreover engine is good and Kovalainen is no slouch either? I simply don't get it.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"
I can´t see the mystery... it´s a new team still, sure they have all the gizmos but so does every other team ahead of them.
In order to move up you have to make bigger steps then everyone else.
And if you are a few steps behind already it doesn´t matter how big your step is because it won´t be enough at that point in time.
It´s obviously not enough at this point and time. Driver´s are good.
"Il Phenomeno" - The one they fear the most!
"2% of the world's population own 50% of the world's wealth."
Good drivers? Heik and Vit? I think "adequate" would be a better term. Heik is a decent journeyman...but i question not teaming him with a younger hotshoe ( real talent that can get more out of the car than is really there). Vit of course brings money with him.
However, these young team's "safe choices" (like DelaRosa at HRT) make me remember the days when Super Aguri with Sato schooled some big teams and drivers. Of course look at Super Ag and Sato now...so what do I know? Still, I look at the drivers as part of Cat's issues.
Scorpaguy wrote:Good drivers? Heik and Vit? I think "adequate" would be a better term. Heik is a decent journeyman...but i question not teaming him with a younger hotshoe ( real talent that can get more out of the car than is really there). Vit of course brings money with him.
However, these young team's "safe choices" (like DelaRosa at HRT) make me remember the days when Super Aguri with Sato schooled some big teams and drivers. Of course look at Super Ag and Sato now...so what do I know? Still, I look at the drivers as part of Cat's issues.
Heikki is definitely a good solid driver.
Not an Alonso, Vettel or Hamilton but definitely a very good driver.
the bolded part is a thing that exists in lala-land. It´s physically IMPOSSIBLE.
"Il Phenomeno" - The one they fear the most!
"2% of the world's population own 50% of the world's wealth."
...to respectfully disagree; ...from the 2007 Super Aguri archives:
"...at the Canadian Grand Prix, the team scored its highest finish to that date, with Takuma Sato finishing 6th and garnering 3 points, passing defending world champion Fernando Alonso on track en route. ITV commentators mention that had it not been for a botched pit stop, Sato may have finished as high as fourth. Sato had been running 5th at the time of the pit stop. Sato's Aguri also finished ahead of the works Honda team...."
And this from a team in bancruptcy. I would also add M Shum had to outdrive his Jordan only once to be noticed by Benneton. Vetttel also consistently delivered more than his Torro Rosso would suggest. F1 history is rife wth such success stories.
As for Heik....he never equaled nor bested his partners at Mclaren...was released and signed with a back marker. "Solid" yes, more than that i doubt.
That really is a big question for Caterham: why are they not getting points? competing with the mid-field? what factor defines "well"?
For me, and what I would expect to matter on this forum, "well" would mean points. However, if points are hard to come by (particularly with the strong and variable mid-field as well as the RBR/Mcl/Ferrari/Merc/Lotus powerhouses) then finishing higher than the midfield teams would be desirable. That overall performance comes from the technical developments (i.e. the car), the race team and strategy (i.e. tire choice, pit stops, choosing your battles), and the driver's ability.
Working in reverse, in terms of driver ability, Petrov and Heikki aren't bad drivers. Sure they're not the "best" but they have run with top-tier teams and experience with the Pirellis from last year isn't a bad thing in the slightest. What they bring to car development is questionable, but that is largely unknown.
Race team and strategy-wise, they don't have a lot to really worry about. They have ok pit stops (at least there hasn't been coverage of a Caterham being sent out with a loose wheel or seized gun) and in terms of strategy, they haven't really been able to choose or actively work on battles on track (apart from a Cat holding up Button in Monaco, but I think that had more to do with Monaco and Button than the Caterham package) due to their lack of overall pace compared to the rest of the mid-field, and that's where the car comes into play.
As it stands, the Caterham car is being held back by very concerted - but conservative - steps forward. While HRT and Marussia are struggling to at least capitalize on an understanding of how all of the pieces (diffuser, rw,fw, etc) are put together to make a good car, Caterham - I feel - have a solid grasp of the form and are now working on the details. Comparing a RB8 FW to a HRT FW is night and day, but for Caterham, their FW forms are at dawn or dusk; Caterham is developing more complex solutions, just not at the rate that they ought to in order to compete for real points this season. The upgrades they had at Silverstone are a good sign: showing that they are pushing updates through. But, they are progressing at a rate slower than the mid-field, which is a problem when you are already on the back foot.
What may be happening is that the team still needs to come into its own in terms of design philosophy, which plays into the need for innovation rather than duplication. With such pressure to get points, get into Q3, and everything, there might not be the time and resources to come up with their own unique developments. For Caterham to at least be competitive, they need to - for the time being - copy the best of the grid. Which brings me to my final thought: with the new slew of regulations in 2014, Caterham may be biding their time.
As still a extremely young BRAND new constructor (not a re-badged Super Aguri or Minardi or Benneton) they still ought to be given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to questioning their development pace. Consistently the best of the new teams, they are still getting heaps of credit (read: $$), they are making gains in pace (no longer in the range of the 107% rule) and may be playing the long game. F1 is not an easy sport and Caterham may be working on all of the details that make for a good team and a good season:
Car updates
Tire Strategy
Driver Development
Driver Ability Development (improving performance track to track)
Pit Stops
Aero Research
Materials Research
Construction Research
Innovation
Rules Interpretation (This last one is the hardest, IMO, because this is where the radical ideas come from)
Data Gathering and Analysis (bear in mind, the days of unrestricted in-season testing is over, so most track data comes from races - hardly a controlled, scientific environment - and simulations)
So, while people cannot understand how Caterham can have the talent to make themselves a good team, I would like to purport that there are major executive decisions away from the public that are directed at making Caterham a solid team, before their plans to make it a great team.
Monster_Energy_F1 wrote:Just a question guys. No right or wrong here but after Caterham launched their 2012 car first, before Ferrari, Mclaren, Red Bull and Lotus me and a few others expected good things from Caterham. Especially since they launched confidentally and on time.
So why have they still not had a point? Where has it gone wrong?
Cheers,
Dom:D
The launch before others might have been a publicity stunt. Launch their car as THE FIRST OF F1'S TEAMS TO SHOW THE NEWWW NEWWW NEWWWW CARRRR CARRR CARRRR SUNDAY Sunday sunday...
No doubt no one would've paid them much mind had RB or Mcl or Ferrari launch theirs first. Launching first, then, would've forced the media to start pouring over the car, trying to examine all the little bits as it was representative of the new season. Smart, really. Promotion: the 400th man in an F1 team.
I cannot argue with anything "Ate9" states. Also, I'm not dissing Heik and Vit....just saying they are not gonna be world champs. Another thing I would add is that I believe the Lotus lawsuit also took a toll on Cat. As for the team's future...I wish them the best. I actully like the looks of the car and Tony F seems a good guy. Money is not everything in F1....Toyota and Honda proved that. I'd really like to see one of the small teams swing big, idea wise, and start getting results....but alas, the rule book may not allow that anymore.
Scorpaguy wrote:I cannot argue with anything "Ate9" states. Also, I'm not dissing Heik and Vit....just saying they are not gonna be world champs.
Exactly, not in Caterham, well not in the near future.
Anyway, they have two consistent drivers that can capitalize on the mistakes of the teams ahead of them, which may even give them the chance to claim the first points in the teams history.
"Failure is not falling down, it is not getting up again."
"Hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia: Fear of long words."
i think its because even though caterhams a new team they basically have inherited lotuses equipment meaning the car they have now is basically what lotuses new car would be like just under new ownership i think by the end of the year they will have definitely caught up with teams like torro rosso i think in time they will become like red bull always was an admirer of lotus but caterham seem to have brought more
sophistication into it
And so you touch this limit, something happens and you suddenly can go a little bit further. With your mind power, your determination, your instinct, and the experience as well, you can fly very high.
Ayrton Senna
They do have some clever people in the team, so I too am puzzled as to why they seem to be flatlined and going nowhere in a hurry?
