Jackie Stewart F1 legends question (aka is F1 too safe)

[Just_a_fan]

A little aside - I'm amused to see that some of the more vocal "the old dangerous days were better" voices are from people seemingly living in the USA. The most litigious society on the planet and thus one much less likely to accept risk in everyday life for fear of being sued. Perhaps there's a link there...

[strad]

I love the way some people simplify it down to wanting to watch drivers die. Silly really. Nobody wants to watch drivers die.

[Richard]

Has it really been simplified down to that?

To say that I am glad drivers don't die as a result of my sport trying to have more drama is not the same as saying those who want drama want to see people die.

It is simply saying that fatalities are a natural consequence of raising risk in motorsport, and many people feel it is not appropriate to demand drivers take higher risks if those risks resulted in fatalities becoming common place again. Note the "if".

Personally I agree that I'd prefer more risks of cars sliding off track, more risk of a DNF if a car leaves the track, allow more robust overtaking moves (ie wheel contact), and machinery failing when pushed a fraction beyond the limit. That sort of risk punishes the foolhardy and rewards the brave.

My view is that it needn't result in fatalities. We could have more fatalities if we got rid of the safety measures, but the racing would still be dull and processional due to the nature of the current formula. In a nutshell, fatalities are pretty poor way to measure the style of the competition, they're just an indicator of bad engineering of car and track.

[Pierce89]

+1 Richard (can't give mods a real vote)

[Pierce89]

A little aside - I'm amused to see that some of the more vocal "the old dangerous days were better" voices are from people seemingly living in the USA. The most litigious society on the planet and thus one much less likely to accept risk in everyday life for fear of being sued. Perhaps there's a link there...

Why are people in this forum stupid enough to bring up people's home country like its a relevant point or somehow cogent? Its not conducive to productive dialog. In fact, it invites nasty response such as mine.

[strad]

I refuse to be drawn in further...I only want to assure all, that, I do not wish to see someone die.
However that said, I would not emasculate the sport to avoid it.
Done.

[RB7ate9]

I refuse to be drawn in further...I only want to assure all, that, I do not wish to see someone die.
However that said, I would not emasculate the sport to avoid it.
Done.

Concur.

For my two cents, I would suggest watching the movie "Grand Prix" from 1966, mostly remembered for the wondrous racing scenes, it was also an indictment of the morbid voyeurism over drivers getting into accidents. The actors and movie did a pretty good job showing the loss from accidents compared to short real-life footage and testimonials.

The technology of the cars to prevent fatalities (i.e. tub, chassis tests, fuel tanks) are vital. The tracks, no matter who designed them with this sort of runoff or another, have their inherent dangers from the nature of motorsport. Frankly, being able to make mistakes and come back makes for more cars on track and more chances for competition. Demanding more punishing - in terms of having made mistakes, rather than the chances of mistakes - is a false notion of "challenging".

What is making it "too safe" is the timidity and inconsistency of the stewards and the corporate nature of F1 teams today. Some are accidents, some are penalties. Watch the tires, bring the car home, "maintain the gap", and "Fernando is faster than you" come from the larger team limiting the drivers to garner a better long-term result. Fix the attitude from the top levels of management, and the sport - and the drivers - will push harder.

[strad]

RB7ate9
Very interesting take and some valid points.

[xpensive]

Formula one of today is to my mind reminiscent of my kid in a bumper car at the amusement park.

There was this legendary argument between Stewart and Ickx over Spa, I still support the latter.

[strad]

X, You'd have to elaborate. I'm drawing a blank.

[xpensive]

Ickx withdrew from GPDA because of this, when the original Spa was cancelled as an F1-track.

As I recall, so did Rodriguez.

[strad]

Ahhhhhhh
I feel it is safer to drive in F1 than to drive to work.
Tell me..Are these guys crazy? Should it be banned? You know to protect them from themselves.
click photo
http://www.stradsplace.com/photos/TT-Racin.jpg

[Richard]

I'm interested in the "more risk" discussion, I think the sport needs it. This is a technical forum so lets focus on the engineering of what more risk might entail.

We see corners that used to be challenging now taken flat out. We used to look forward to certain race to see who would be brave on certain corners by lifting later. For example Eau Rouge gained its reputation because it was difficult to negotiate, but now its relatively routine. When did we last see a drivers ambition exceed the car's capability on Eau Rouge?

[xpensive]

...
This is a technical forum so lets focus on the engineering of what more risk might entail.
...

Could have fooled me.

Anyway, as strad so eloquently points out, it was never about a bodycount or anything of the kind, just that cars going off or not in the Tarzan-bend at Zandvort, including rain and drifting sand, was something to behold in comparison to a lap around Dubai or anywhere else on those boooring Tilke-tracks.

It's still the danger that is the lure of racing, if you want to re-define that, you might as well re-write the bible when you're at it.

[beelsebob]

...
This is a technical forum so lets focus on the engineering of what more risk might entail.
...

Could have fooled me. Anyway, as strad so eloquently points out, it's never about a bodycount or anything of the kind, just that cars going off or not in the Tarzan-bend at Zandvort, including rain and drifting sand, was something to behold in comparison to a lap around Dubai or anywhere else on those Tilke-tracks.

I'd tend to agree, but I'm not personally sure that this is because of the lack of people risking more, but instead simply because the tilke-tracks are (for the most part) boring, and include too many technical turns and not enough beautiful ones.

It's still the danger that is the lure of racing

For me at least, it's not in any way. It's seeing incredibly skilled people go at it in a battle of whits, for me in fact, the less danger, the more they can concentrate on beating each other.

if you want to re-dfine that, you might as well re-write the bible when you're at it.

Well, I'm not really sure there's any "re-defining" to do here – it's pure opinion... But then, I guess, so is the bible, and there are plenty of people who don't agree with what it says either