Lance Armstrong DQ'd (cycling is still racing, no?)

[timbo]

So, is there anybody with a deeper insight into what's happening here?
I guess it's a BIG trouble. Lance Armstrong was a huge media personality and true ambassador for the sport. His image transcended the image of the sport. To see such person excluded from the sport with all his titles given away is a big hit on sport's credibility.

[Petroltorque]

This story has got serious legs. What's really interesting is that he's not contesting the USADA sanction. By not contesting it the evidence the Anti Doping authorities have against him will not come to light.
The problem is cycling was so loosely regulated for so long it was possible to dodge a positive test. Until we go down the route of establishing Blood Passeports for every athlete people are always going to shout Doper!

[Tommy Cookers]

the USADA owns the Tour de France ?
and retroactively installs the 2nd place finishers as winners having established their doping innocence ?
or not ?

all athletes dope with supplementary doses of hormones naturally present (growth, testosterone etc), this cannot ever be banned
currently banned is other stuff established by previous use, new stuff is escaping detection because it can't yet be detected
our (British) Olympics had the same posturing by the authorities

F1 looks better now !

[gato azul]

technical only the UCI can dsq him and take his tiles away, but there are maybe some other legal hurdles, as, as far as I understand it, WADA has a 8 year "statute of limitations" clause in their code, thereby it's difficult to rule on things prior to 2004 by now.

As for the credibility of the sport, F1 or the Olympics, everyone will have their own opinion about this.

[Petroltorque]

If I might be allowed to shed some light on this topic. WADA has defined Doping as the use of any method, Chemical or physical, with the intention of improving athletic performance. Loosely, the list of prohited substances can be divided into; Stimulants, Narcotic agents, Anabolic steroids, Peptide hormones, Diuretics, Masking agents and the holy grail of endurance Athletes, Blood Doping.
No athlete will be sanctioned for the presence of his own natural hormones. What is sanctioned is the use of natural hormones which have to be produced synthetically and thus have a different carbon footprint to natural hormones.
Urine testing is old hat and can't be relied on as an effective screen in cycling. It doesn't identify EPO.

[bhall]

This story has got serious legs. What's really interesting is that he's not contesting the USADA sanction. By not contesting it the evidence the Anti Doping authorities have against him will not come to light.
[...]

Absent a hearing, which is essentially what Armstrong declined, WADA rules require USADA to present a full summary of the charges against him and a summary of all evidence that corroborates those charges. Only then will the UCI (Union Cycliste Internationale), the IOC (International Olympic Committee) and other relevant bodies strip Armstrong of the titles he won during the time in which USADA claims he cheated. Those agencies are bound by WADA rules to take that course of action.

However, the court of public opinion is obviously not bound by any regulations. I think Armstrong is fully aware of the evidence against him and has walked away with the hope that public opinion will not be swayed USADA's findings. It's a political move on his part. If the evidence is as weak as Armstrong apparently thinks it is, USADA will discredit itself when it publishes its summary.

"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." ~ Napoleon Bonaparte

[hardingfv32]

This is a political witch hunt where Armstrong could not possibly prevail. Almost no loss to him as he has retired.
The US government investigated the exact same subject matter and took no legal action. The USADA operates with almost no standards for evidence gathering or review. There is also limited options for appeal. Their activities have no semblance to what is known as legal justice.

The USADA has no say about the Tour wins. Taking the Tour wins back is going to take actual court actions in a valid legal system. Why would the Tour want the bad PR for an outcome they will not prevail in.

Brian

[strad]

What's really interesting is that he's not contesting the USADA sanction

Not taking any side but he says he's tired of contesting it. He's been fighting it for a long time now.

[jon-mullen]

And so the accolades go to the second fastest doper?

[Pierce89]

They have no actual evidence against Lance i.e. he's never failed any tests. What they do have, is testimony from his teammate(his competitor)that he cheated. He might be guilty, I don't know, but his titles shouldn't be stripped solely on testimony from a competitor. It's like if the FIA took both of Vettel's championships away because Webber claimed he was using intelligent traction control but the FIA couldn't find any real evidence.

[Pierce89]

crap. sorry

[Tommy Cookers]

IWADA has defined Doping as the use of any method, Chemical or physical, with the intention of improving athletic performance.
No athlete will be sanctioned for the presence of his own natural hormones. What is sanctioned is the use of natural hormones which have to be produced synthetically and thus have a different carbon footprint to natural hormones.

so this explains why eg British athletes can take nitrate (as vacuum-concentrated Beetroot juice) after it has gone from the fertiliser factory through a plant, and why it's ok to harvest one's own (or a friends) testosterone for re-installation ?

BTW any progress finding the dope-free rider to give the Tours to ? ...... anyone ?

[Petroltorque]

IWADA has defined Doping as the use of any method, Chemical or physical, with the intention of improving athletic performance.
No athlete will be sanctioned for the presence of his own natural hormones. What is sanctioned is the use of natural hormones which have to be produced synthetically and thus have a different carbon footprint to natural hormones.

so this explains why eg British athletes can take nitrate (as vacuum-concentrated Beetroot juice) after it has gone from the fertiliser factory through a plant, and why it's ok to harvest one's own (or a friends) testosterone for re-installation ?

BTW any progress finding the dope-free rider to give the Tours to ? ...... anyone ?

Athletes are allowed to take supplements, the most common is Creatine which actas as an energy substrate. Without delving into the Biochemistry its broken down anaerobically to provide energy in explosive sports. Nitrates arenkt used unless you are referring to the use of isotonic drinks to aid rehydration.
As for harvesting your own or anyone elses testosterone, that's fantasy.
Tyler Hamilton's testamony is pretty damning. There may be no smoking gun but there is a weighty amount of evidence against him. As has been stated earlier failure to contest the case is a tacit acceptance of guilt.

[Tommy Cookers]

I was trying to show that embracing the arbitrary is a bit foolish
the public face of science is often like this (I should know)

so you would support a movement to retroactively apply current F1 rules (and points system), say to give Mr Prost 6 or 7 WDCs and Mr Senna 1 WDC ?

[Petroltorque]

WADA anti doping rules are not arbitrary. They are a legal framework determined and sanctioned by sporting bodies. An athlete will be convicted on the accepted evidence. As the rules stand a no contest is a conviction. I suspect that no one will be awarded the vacant titles.
The FIA have voide results of cheating teams in the past. IIRC Toyota were thrown out of the WRC for turbo illegality.
I fail to see the point you're making about retrospectively appying the current point system.