Lance Armstrong DQ'd (cycling is still racing, no?)

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timbo
timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Lance Armstrong DQ'd (cycling is still racing, no?)

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Petroltorque wrote:You make valid points. But no oversight organisation can force an individual to part with body fluids without his/her express consent. No right thinking Doper will part with blood if he knows he will be incriminated. Taking blood without consent is a Tort ( actionable civil wrong) of common assault. It was only when the governing bodies were able to get blood testing within their articles that they could proceed. Until then they were left with the non invasive but unsatisfactory urine testing.
Urine testing allowed an athletes lawyer to cloud the issue and I have yet to meet a lawyer who would not argue black is white for enough money!
Well, I get it was a hard process to enforce a unified and stringent procedure for testing upon many parties, but it's just my impression that their approach does not seem balanced.
They take very serious actions that affect the image of the sport and those should be taken with great caution.
How far they want to look back in their revisionism? Would they next take on Indurain?

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hollus
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Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 01:21
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: Lance Armstrong DQ'd (cycling is still racing, no?)

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Jersey Tom wrote:Honestly I think the whole doping accusation thing is almost inconsequential at this point. Lance is so much bigger than just cycling.

If he truly was clean, he's as much as a freak of nature incredible athlete as we've always thought. If he doped (and passed however many drug tests), he's a doper in a field of dopers and still outclassed everyone.

Regardless of all of that, the dude has had a positive impact on hundreds of thousands of people's lives and his foundation has done incredible things. A month, a year, two years ago before all this recent drama.. that's been by far the biggest thing for me. Whether or not he is "officially" recognized with however many wins or medals.. makes no difference to me.
Lance is huge. Lance is an example to millions. So I guess the question is whether we want to have a (sophisticated) cheater as an example to millions. A matter of personal opinion, I guess. Not saying that he cheated, I have my opinion, but I'll keep it to myself, I consider this case unproven...

@Petroltorque:
Clembuterol is a relatively small molecule, not larger than most cell wall molecules and most drugs. It is readily absorbed orally (clinically used that way and fed to animals that way), so the story of contaminated beef is plausible. I personally don't believe it, but it makes sense and has happened before. Any clembuterol found in the human body is external, but the concentration was so small (only a newly developed test made it detectable) that the contaminated meat would actually explain it. That said, eating 2 large steaks in your rest day makes almost as much sense as having several beers and a whiskey...
Rivals, not enemies.

Petroltorque
Petroltorque
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Joined: 27 Jul 2011, 18:18

Re: Lance Armstrong DQ'd (cycling is still racing, no?)

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Mate, absolute maximum respect. You made me go back and look up biochemistry and pharmocology I studied 30 years ago. As you rightly said Clenbuterol is a small molecule, whose primary function is a Beta2 agaonist similar to some Asthma medications. It has been shown to have anabolic propertires by stimulating muscle mass in animals and reducing body fat.
It is not an anabolic steroid, whose chemical structures are large and though absorbed tend to undergo significant first past metabolism in the liver after absorption thus rendering them less effective. Hollus allow me to big you up again!
Hollus as an aside does your famous countryman Bjarne Riis still own/ manage the UCI pro Tout outfit. Encroaching senility has caused the memory to fade but I'm sure he too was involved in a doping scandal.

hardingfv32
hardingfv32
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Joined: 03 Apr 2011, 19:42

Re: Lance Armstrong DQ'd (cycling is still racing, no?)

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"Despite the officially sounding name, it turns out the “United States Anti-doping Agency is not a part of the federal government. Although it receives almost 70 percent of its funding from the federal grants, the USADA is a government program masquerading as a non-profit organization. This non-profit status allows it to investigate and prosecute athletes without affording them the constitutional and due process protections required of other federal agencies. This status also allows it to prosecute athletes with a lower burden of proof than the “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard that would have been required in the previous investigation by the USDOJ. Finally, it allows a situation where the same man, Mr. Travis T. Tygart (The CEO)is allowed to serve as Prosecutor, Jury and Judge in the investigation of Lance Armstrong."

Brian

bhall
bhall
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Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Lance Armstrong DQ'd (cycling is still racing, no?)

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USADA is not part of the federal government, but it's a government program? Umm, OK.

Have a look at this: International Convention against Doping in Sport

(The U.S. ratified that treaty, by the way.)

gato azul
gato azul
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Joined: 02 Feb 2012, 14:39

Re: Lance Armstrong DQ'd (cycling is still racing, no?)

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hardingfv32 wrote:"Despite the officially sounding name, it turns out the “United States Anti-doping Agency is not a part of the federal government. Although it receives almost 70 percent of its funding from the federal grants, the USADA is a government program masquerading as a non-profit organization. This non-profit status allows it to investigate and prosecute athletes without affording them the constitutional and due process protections required of other federal agencies. This status also allows it to prosecute athletes with a lower burden of proof than the “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard that would have been required in the previous investigation by the USDOJ. Finally, it allows a situation where the same man, Mr. Travis T. Tygart (The CEO)is allowed to serve as Prosecutor, Jury and Judge in the investigation of Lance Armstrong."

Brian
I think, there is some confusion/misconception about what "doping" means in legal terms.
First and foremost it is breach of a private contract and "doping law" is the enforcement of these private agreements.
It does not consituate a "criminal offense" in every/most cases, as some of the "banned substances" are legal "over he counter drugs" in some countries (USA for example).
This means, that criminal law standards such as "proof beyond a reasonable doubt” don't apply in (some/most of) these cases.
The standard of proof in hearings involving alleged doping is higher than one would commonly find in breach of contract proceedings.
CAS requires more than a simple balance of probabilities, the typical civil law standard, to prove particular elements of a doping offense.
Instead, elements of the doping offense must be established to the comfortable satisfaction of the arbitration panel.
The arbitrators in De Bruin v. FINA stated that they had “no doubt that the standard of proof required of [the sport’s governing body] is high: less than the criminal standard, but more than the ordinary civil standard.”
Doping is similar to an technical infringement in racing in the way how it is seen legally.
By participation in the competition (Olympics, Tour de France whatever) the athlete agrees, that he will be bound by the governing regulations, and the jurisdiction is part of this regulations, just like in F1 or any other racing series.
It's a private agreement between the parties involved, that may involves a international body (as in F1) or may does not (as in NASCAR).
Nobody will go to jail for a flexy wing a too lage engine and/or a doping offense, as they could if criminal law would apply.

thearmofbarlow
thearmofbarlow
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Joined: 23 Feb 2012, 06:43

Re: Lance Armstrong DQ'd (cycling is still racing, no?)

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bhallg2k wrote:USADA is not part of the federal government, but it's a government program? Umm, OK.
Correct. The US Postal Service is the same way. There are many programs that receive federal funding but are not under federal control.

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Paul
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Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 19:33

Re: Lance Armstrong DQ'd (cycling is still racing, no?)

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Doping offences do often lead to criminal investigations, since acquiring many doping substances goes hand-in-hand with trafficking of narcotics.

Even a flexi wing or an oversized engine can lead to a criminal investigation if its use results in an accident, weren't Williams under criminal investigation for a long time after Imola-94?

bhall
bhall
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Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Lance Armstrong DQ'd (cycling is still racing, no?)

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thearmofbarlow wrote:
bhallg2k wrote:USADA is not part of the federal government, but it's a government program? Umm, OK.
Correct. The US Postal Service is the same way. There are many programs that receive federal funding but are not under federal control.
Yes, I understand that much. The FDA and Federal Reserve are, more or less, similar. The original statement just didn't make sense in the context in which it was presented. USADA has a Congressional mandate to implement the World Anti-Doping Code domestically, which is an obligation the U.S. accepted when it signed and ratified the International Convention against Doping in Sport treaty.

Though I don't necessarily agree with its methodology, it's as official as is possible under international law. In other words, the implication that it's simply a non-profit was way off the mark.