Why is Renault in F1?

[Mikey_s]

There has been a considerable amount of mud-slinging and I think the thread is creeping a little... in an attempt to get it back on track I thought one more post might help...

Nobody can doubt (but someone surely will) that Renault has a worthwhile history in F1; they have clearly demonstrated that they know how to build a fast car and strong, reliable (until last weekend!) racing engines. But take a look on http://www.Renault.com. OK, I'll concede that you can find a link to the F1 department on the front page and a short report of the last race.. but there seems to be no link between their F1 involvement and the road vehicles on the website. I looked in the Innovation section, nothing, nada, rein on F1...

Why do they not make more use of the good (great?!) record that they have in F1 to support the brand... I don't see a firm link between each F1 event and Renaults' target customer... am I blind?

To those who say, it might make somebody think about trying a car, I reply; hell, there must be cheaper ways to do that! (and it's risky.... what message does a blown engine give? (although renault have been spectacularly reliable). The thread was (and is) not intended to be anti-Renault, but I struggle to see the commercial reasoning and that niggles me because they most certainly are not doing this for charity...

[dumrick]

That's very strange to say that two makes that make cars with the same mechanics, made in the same factories have different reliabilty...

Yes indeed, but it's true! Don't forget that most of the software is different.

Actually, I believe that the software is also the same, as the interfaces and diagnosys systems, etc. Change from a Citroën to a Peugeot and you'll agree with me: same functions, same options, same accessories (radios, gps), same menu and parameters you can adjust, etc.

One thing is certain though: when PSA changed their electronics to multiplexed systems, it took them some time to make it completely reliable. That happened to many important manufacturers (even more serious problems had Mercedes-Benz). I'm lucky our 406 had still the old system and that our 407 and my 207 are new enough to already have reliable systems.

Other thing that may influence reliability: the cycle of components may be different from make and model. An example: the C3 was made in a new platform, with new gearboxes, etc. Some mechanical problems were reported in the early stages of this model. The 207, based in the same platform, may have some boby part-specific problems, but the mechanical reliability is a lot higher. This can make the reliability data change from make to make, even if they build the same car with different tune-up and looks...

[jgredline]

Back in the mid 80's I taught classes at the Renault training center here in the states in Gardena Ca.
I taught lasses on the

Renault Alliance = total garbage with its head gaskets alway leaking and destroying the wet liners

Renault Le Car (we never got R5 here) = complete and total french crap

Renault Fuego = the very worse of all the cars we got here with its elictrical fires, head gaskets, turbo's frying like french fries, transmissions leaking and breaking..

I always said to my self and my students. '' for the life of me, I can't figure out how they can put out good F1 engines and thier cars are crap''

Best thing that ever happened was renault stopped selling cars here.

All this and the cars were butt ugly.

[Alexis]

Other thing that may influence reliability: the cycle of components may be different from make and model. An example: the C3 was made in a new platform, with new gearboxes, etc. Some mechanical problems were reported in the early stages of this model. The 207, based in the same platform, may have some boby part-specific problems, but the mechanical reliability is a lot higher. This can make the reliability data change from make to make, even if they build the same car with different tune-up and looks...

You can't be more right.


I don't know what's the case in other countries but here in Belgium there are big Formula one stickers on the windows of the Renault dealerships with "Feel it" on them. So they actually use their F1 activities to promote their normal road cars here in Belgium. (But that's also the case here with Honda and Toyota) I just think they should have a real 2 seater fast car in their dealerships to do something about their racing image. Ok they have a Mégane sport and a Clio sport but those are not really sportscars.

Sales would be quite well if they made a 2 seater. What would you buy if you were a Renault fan and wanted a sporty car? A toyota Celica, Mercedes SLK, BMW Z4, or the Renault sports car? And they do have a lot of fans.

Maybe I even buy one because I can't afford a Ferrari

[dumrick]

Back in the mid 80's I taught classes at the Renault training center here in the states in Gardena Ca.
I taught lasses on the

Renault Alliance = total garbage with its head gaskets alway leaking and destroying the wet liners

Renault Le Car (we never got R5 here) = complete and total french crap

Renault Fuego = the very worse of all the cars we got here with its elictrical fires, head gaskets, turbo's frying like french fries, transmissions leaking and breaking..

I always said to my self and my students. '' for the life of me, I can't figure out how they can put out good F1 engines and thier cars are crap''

Best thing that ever happened was renault stopped selling cars here.

All this and the cars were butt ugly.

This "crap" reasoning makes me think of cultural biasing rather than objective analisys...

First, those turbo problems you talk about - yes, they had turbos in a compact engine and to make technological leaps you must risk your solution not being perfect at first - sorry, I'm talking about a concept you, as an american, may not grasp - "technological leaps", at least judging by the old solutions american car makers use.

Second, Renault has evolved a lot since the era you talk about. Back then, they were state owned and the main concerns, after the oil crisis in the 70's, were fuel efficiency and contained costs. Again, sorry if you, as an american, may not understand the concept "fuel efficiency", but I'm sure the Wikipedia may help you.

Third, tastes are subjective concerning looks. I never liked Renaults also. Like I hate most american car designs and love most italian ones - is this making me buy an Italian car? Never in my life!

Fourth and last, the Alpine Berlinette, the Renault 8 Gordini, the Renault 5 Alpine Turbo are examples of very different, but clever, sport vehicle designs from Renault. The lesson that Lotus gave was to show that you don't have to have an extra powerful and polluting engine to have a fast and amusing car.

[vyselegend]

In this month edition of the "F1 racing" magazine, there is a long article about the reasons why the six main manufacturers in F1 are investing in the sport.

I was going to try a full traduction of the article, but it would be too long, so I'll just quote the interesting points. (My english might be a problem also, but I'm sure I'm at least better than google for traductions...)

During it's domination days as a motorist, the Renault group realised that their engine were talked about... Only when it broke! So it was quite difficult to make a comercial use of their succes. When the car was winning, it was Williams' win, but when it did DNF, it was Renault's defeat. Hence the reason to come back as a complete team.

That said, before the election of Carlos Ghosn as new PDG (begining of 2005), Renault never used F1 as a marketing strategy. Strange, isn't it? But from there on, it has become the case, and nowadays there are many adds that try to draw a link between their road cars and their implication in F1.
"We gathered an exeptional team"explain Alain Dassas" Our goal is to maximise our success exploitation, from marketing to merchandising. A true production plan."

The mood of the staff is another good aspect. 65% of Renault's employees say they passionatly support the team and 15% are closely following all sporting events from the brand. Around 6000 employees went to the 2006 french GP.
"F1 build an image", say Dassas,"particulary in terms of quality, reliability, and technology. Although it's very difficult to generate a direct impact on car's sales, F1 is creating a good image for the brand in difficults markets, and reinforce it in the better ones."

According to an internal enquiry from Renault, 2/3 of clients think that F1 success did boost their confidence over the brand, and the raise of potential buyers is estimated to be 10%, thanks to Formula one. In China, 27% of potential buyers would be ready to buy a Renault, while the brand isn't yet present in the country! Sales knew a big boost in Spain also, but Renault admit it's thanks to Fernando more than the team. Dassas concude:" Difficult to determine the direct impact on sales of a victory. It's only on the long term that we'd be able to answear. What we do know, is that the brand is well known, most than before, and that have a growing role in the brand's image"

While the group have exellent results in the sport, there aren't many convincing sport cars at Renault."But", say C.Ghosn,"many cars comming these next three years will directly benefit from our formula one's victories."
"Technologies transfert from F1 to road cars is very limited, however, because the extreme nature of F1 engineering make it closer to aeronautical industry than road cars industry."

Personaly I see the quote of Ghosn about the cars to come in the next three years as a hint that Renault and Nissan are gathering force to try some sort of "putsch" in the sport cars market, where Nissan already have a foot in. The Nepta concept showed in wazo's post is obviously powered by the same 3.5 as the 350Z, and don't forget Nissan is also running a 4.5 V8 in Japan.

[jgredline]

Back in the mid 80's I taught classes at the Renault training center here in the states in Gardena Ca.
I taught lasses on the

Renault Alliance = total garbage with its head gaskets alway leaking and destroying the wet liners

Renault Le Car (we never got R5 here) = complete and total french crap

Renault Fuego = the very worse of all the cars we got here with its elictrical fires, head gaskets, turbo's frying like french fries, transmissions leaking and breaking..

I always said to my self and my students. '' for the life of me, I can't figure out how they can put out good F1 engines and thier cars are crap''

Best thing that ever happened was renault stopped selling cars here.

All this and the cars were butt ugly.

This "crap" reasoning makes me think of cultural biasing rather than objective analisys...

First, those turbo problems you talk about - yes, they had turbos in a compact engine and to make technological leaps you must risk your solution not being perfect at first - sorry, I'm talking about a concept you, as an american, may not grasp - "technological leaps", at least judging by the old solutions american car makers use.

Second, Renault has evolved a lot since the era you talk about. Back then, they were state owned and the main concerns, after the oil crisis in the 70's, were fuel efficiency and contained costs. Again, sorry if you, as an american, may not understand the concept "fuel efficiency", but I'm sure the Wikipedia may help you.

Third, tastes are subjective concerning looks. I never liked Renaults also. Like I hate most american car designs and love most italian ones - is this making me buy an Italian car? Never in my life!

Fourth and last, the Alpine Berlinette, the Renault 8 Gordini, the Renault 5 Alpine Turbo are examples of very different, but clever, sport vehicle designs from Renault. The lesson that Lotus gave was to show that you don't have to have an extra powerful and polluting engine to have a fast and amusing car.

Renaults biggest problem was that they did not care about thier customers. Renault knew they were selling junk and would not warranty anything after the 12000 miles were up. To make matters worse, they still kept selling the defective good for nothing pieces of scrap they called cars. Renault only cared about renault.

The only good thing to come out of france are french frys. Oh wait, those were actually made in america. my bad

[vyselegend]

jgredline, I strongly hope you're not seriously anti-french, just because you don't like the Renault brand!

Anyway, that reminded me of an interview of the PDG of Peugeot (sorry, forgot his name), when the 907 concept car was presented.
He was asked if the concept was hinting an eventual return to the american market, and he answeared that no, and developped that actually political relations between France and USA had a very strong impact on the strategy of the group. It was meaning, more or less, that while the group have had the intent to try a come back in USA, current relations (known to be difficult) between the two nations forced them to withdraw with the project.

I'm not going to make a caricature of americans, but obviously USA's inhabitants are majoritary nationalists, and are developping a strong anti-french spirit, based on political dissenssions between the respective leaders.

If Renault, Peugeot, and Citroen withdrawed in the USA some times ago, maybe it's not because all their cars were "crap" (american cars are,by far, crappier IMO) but because their brands were rejected for their origin, and didn't survive the fact of being french names. I think that's a pity, and such a spirit doesn't deserve respect.

BTW I'd like to stop seeing comments about french nationality making me an arrogant person or whatever crap I read... I've never felt very commited with my country, I disaprove most of it's politic and international behavior, and so I refuse to take offense for what I'm not responsable of.
Oh, and open your eyes also, you'll see there are some very arrogant dudes around there, and they doesn't seem to be frenchs, althought their cherrished team is lead by a pathetical french cheater.

[jgredline]

jgredline, I strongly hope you're not seriously anti-french, just because you don't like the Renault brand!

Anyway, that reminded me of an interview of the PDG of Peugeot (sorry, forgot his name), when the 907 concept car was presented.
He was asked if the concept was hinting an eventual return to the american market, and he answeared that no, and developped that actually political relations between France and USA had a very strong impact on the strategy of the group. It was meaning, more or less, that while the group have had the intent to try a come back in USA, current relations (known to be difficult) between the two nations forced them to withdraw with the project.

I'm not going to make a caricature of americans, but obviously USA's inhabitants are majoritary nationalists, and are developping a strong anti-french spirit, based on political dissenssions between the respective leaders.

If Renault, Peugeot, and Citroen withdrawed in the USA some times ago, maybe it's not because all their cars were "crap" (american cars are,by far, crappier IMO) but because their brands were rejected for their origin, and didn't survive the fact of being french names. I think that's a pity, and such a spirit doesn't deserve respect.

BTW I'd like to stop seeing comments about french nationality making me an arrogant person or whatever crap I read... I've never felt very commited with my country, I disaprove most of it's politic and international behavior, and so I refuse to take offense for what I'm not responsable of.
Oh, and open your eyes also, you'll see there are some very arrogant dudes around there, and they doesn't seem to be frenchs, althought their cherrished team is lead by a pathetical french cheater.

Hey
I oppologize if I have offended you. I had directed my comments to the french cars. In saying that I will be the first to say that Ford and GM also put out garbage. Truthfully speaking only the Japaneese and the Germans put out good cars these days.

[vyselegend]

Yeah, no real offense taken, don't worry. I think I was already pretty heated-up when I read your post, for several reasons, and felt the need to clarify my position relative to some comments you made, but also maybe to some comments I read from other members in other threads. Hence the last part of my post wasn't directly aiming at you.

Sorry for the OT, I hope someone will put this topic back on the rail, as I think it is an interresting one.

[G-Rock]

May I add some idea'rs about french vs US vs japanese.

My theory is Unions

Just look at Englands brilliant racing engineering. Ever since the '50's they have dominated motorsport with good engineering and innovation yet at the same time their auto industry was falling apart.
The US car companies had the same problems in the late 70's early '80's. The unions had too much power, stifling progress while the non union japanese were quietly chipping away at the American market.
The french car companies are the same i assume. I don' know much about the unions in France but the French should have no excuse for building crappy cars. I'm sure that their strong nationalism is also not helping much.
In Canada the car consumer has almost no national pride and we are better for it as we buy on price and quality, not where the car is built. For every Ford/GM plant that closes down, a new Honda or Toyota plant pops up.
Renault could easily become a world leader but only if they produce a quality product. That's all it comes down to. It has nothing to do with US, French political relations. That's only a poor excuse for building a crappy car.

[wazojugs]

I have renault all my driving life and never really had any bad problems (5, 19 and two clios), my father had a 21 turbo many moons ago and my brother a williams 2.

Yes they are prone to electrical problems the megane and laguna are examples of this.

also someone mentioned they got a safrane being a renault fan i would never have ones of those due to electrical problems and a price that plummets, blame yourself for not reading car reviews.

But the thing they have in bundles over other cars are charecter and good seats (i have a niggly back) and the suspension ride around bends rolls alittle but then holds very well.

[Tom]

Some French cars are incredable. They really seem to use their heads do French car designers, for example the Pneumatic valves on the Renault Turbo, of course hydro-pneumatics on Citroens (DS through XM) detachable rims, pneumatic tyres and much more. I'm also amazed at modern Citroen's, despite being now made by Peugeot they are creeping back to the stylish, innovative machines that dies after the BX really. Look at the rear windscreen of the C4, remind you of something? that's right, a DS. Good for them. I love Frenchies, me!!

[Alexis]

Renault has always been one of the biggest car manufacturers, they introduced a lot of things and they made amazing supercars and racecars. They are still one of the best when it comes to safety, but I would love to see a new Renault supercar.

I know Renault make great cars, but my opinion is that there's a lack of emotion in them, they are too "clean". For some reason I really don't like their designs, they lack character. Strange because French people are full of character, sometimes a little arrogant but that's what I like about them! For some reason I also like French actors, can't explain it. I can be wrong, but i think Renaults design wil age quite quick. Still I think they should come up with something more exclusive and sporty. Not necessarily a hypercar but something with the same performance as a Porsche boxter let's say Concepts are nice and good experiments, but they are forgotten after some time.

I personally like the Peugeot design, some of it done by Pinin Farina.

Citroëns not really my thing too, all the chrome seems a little "kitch" to me.

This of course is my personal opinion

[West]

I think w/o Renault my 350Z would probably never materialize. I'm sure there's interchanging technology and production methods between Nissan and Renault. Some Nissans in the US remind me of Renault when I look at them.