New Engine Cost

[astracrazy]

I though about putting this in the engine section, buts its not 100% to do with the engine

There is an article on the James Allen website which talks about solar panel in F1, but in it it talks about the new engines costing three to four times the amount of the current engines i.e £15-20M due to new technology. Teams are starting to question is it worth it and would it not be better to adjust the current engines in use less fuel etc. Apparently the new engines aren't that much greener than the current.

Seems a bit of a mess

[Jersey Tom]

Apparently the new engines aren't that much greener than the current.

Race engines... the intent is to burn as much fuel as quickly as possible and create the much output power. Very non-green. Polar opposite I'd even say. Which is why I say the green initiatives can be a big crock.

If they want more environmentally friendly races they should cut engine power down to say 150hp. Much less fuel consumption!

[astracrazy]

100%

which is i guess why the teams are asking if its worth paying 3-4 times more than current. Seems more viable to allow work on the current engines to improve them

[xpensive]

Which is one reason why I don't believe the new engine formula will happen, in turn also an additional cause why PURE folded so sudden, Gilles Simon were probably quietly informed by MrT about where this was going.

[bhall]

[...]
Apparently the new engines aren't that much greener than the current.

[...]

I'd be willing to bet the carbon footprint of just the logistics associated with a single race, even one in Europe, exceeds that of every grand prix throughout the course of a year combined. The reason why people aren't buying this 1.6L engine is because it's a horribly cynical manifestation of (what I at least hope are) good intentions.

The "greenest" action any racing series can make is to alter its various support structures. Not only is that both cheaper and immeasurably more effective than changing the product itself, it's chock full o' real world relevance.

Hybrid/electric trucks (lorries) would put a huge dent in global warming, and the concept could make billions in the process.

[Dragonfly]

@bhallg2k
You get my humble point up.

Freeing energy recovery and utilization development is the much better way to go if money should be spent for something new. Combine it with cap on fuel consumption. Thus power level is not going to go down much if there is more regenerative power to be used.
Some manufacturer may eventually be more successful and drive ahead for a while, but that's how things work where there is competition.

[xpensive]

It would of course be just as "green" to apply the fuel-flow restrictions, 100 kg/h or 38.6 cc/s, on the current V8s.

As bhall says, the logistics around a race consumes far more fuel than the event, but that goes for the olympics as well.

On topic, I still believe that it's the different recovery systems that is building the outrageous development costs?

[Steven]

The amount of criticism these days around here is astounding. You guys should all be happy and looking forward to different engines, considering there was so much opposition against the engine freeze to cut costs. That meant only small steps in engine progress were possible, while now we could see some real developments again, albeit of course in a restricted environment.

I also think that anyone who thought that these engines would cost less than the previous ones were simply naive. The engine manufacturers will try to produce the best engines for huge potential marketing benefit, but on the other hand will try to get back as much cash as possible from the customer teams.

And finally, on the logistics, we all know about it (that was actually one of the arguments of Ferrari to hold back on the new engine formula), but that doesn't mean we should keep on burning fuel with 7 year old engines. F1 would never be able to hold the same level of credibility when running with a de-tuned engine from 2006. We all know engine development progress is not being made in F1 anymore, but at least they can make an effort to produce engines that are relevant to this time and day.

Bottom line, we can hope for more cost-cutting measures agreed by all teams, so that each can free up a few millions to buy the engines.

[xpensive]

It might just be me, but changing the entire concept at an outrageous cost just for the change is a bit silly, in particular as these new 2014 engines will also be homologated, better to allow development on the V8s and spend the money there?

[motorloon1993]

I agree, personally I can't wait to see what some of the best engineers in the world will come up with, the fact these engine will have turbo's is itself pretty exciting, its a new area in f1 that the genius' can play with.

Also..
I'm new here and have a big interest in the technical side of F1 but only so much knowledge about it so forgive me if this question sounds a bit stupid but are these engines going to be wider and is it going to effect the shape of the car?

[bhall]

The amount of criticism these days around here is astounding. You guys should all be happy and looking forward to different engines, considering there was so much opposition against the engine freeze to cut costs.

[...]

Bottom line, we can hope for more cost-cutting measures agreed by all teams, so that each can free up a few millions to buy the engines.

I have a problem with people who piss on me and then tell me it's raining (generally speaking, of course). Just because something is different doesn't mean it's better. I've been adamantly against the 2.4L V8s since they were proposed, but I'd just as soon see them continue a bit longer while a sensible replacement is formulated, because that's a bill these 1.6L jobs simply do not fit.

And the thought that teams need to free up a few mil just to buy them? I don't even know what to do with that.

It would of course be just as "green" to apply the fuel-flow restrictions, 100 kg/h or 38.6 cc/s, on the current V8s.

[...]

Sincere question: Is that really necessary? One of the reasons why I threw out the idea of an unrestricted 0.5L engine is because I wonder if something so simple could stand on its own as its own solution.

The first reason for FIA engine restrictions seems to always be to restrict power. Even with a very F1-ish 500cc engine - composite block, unobtainium components, direct injection, VVT, the myriad things my meager mind cannot comprehend - how much power is available, and wouldn't teams need to complement that with compressors, turbos, KERS, TERS, etc., to be competitive anyway? To me, that just screams real world relevance.

[astracrazy]

I agree, personally I can't wait to see what some of the best engineers in the world will come up with, the fact these engine will have turbo's is itself pretty exciting, its a new area in f1 that the genius' can play with.

Then why not open up the current engines and let the engineers come up with something - improved fuel economy, more bhp etc.
The turbos won't be nothing great, it won't be like the old days you hear Brundle talking about.

Bottom line, we can hope for more cost-cutting measures agreed by all teams, so that each can free up a few millions to buy the engines.

This is the problem with F1 at the moment and im not sure whos completely responsible. They don't know what boat to be in. One minute its cost cutting then its be green. One minute teams are spending too much money, then they decide we have to be green so they decide to spend millions on KERS, millions on a new engine designs, triple there engine costs etc. I can think of a lot cheaper ways to make F1 green before they need to spend millions making new things.

The current engines might be 7 years old, but they can still be re-tuned to a better more up to date spec

[Steven]

The problem in F1 is of course the politics, where you have teams that can only gain from cost cutting, and others that could lose their advantage. It is the protectionism of those big teams that prevent big progress to be made of course.

Then, of course your point of tuning and modifying the current V8's. Cutting another 2000rpm would help, but it would also greatly decrease power, the sound that many are complaining of already, and the lack of technical development. Whenever more freedom would be allowed, the manufacturers will spend a ton to be the best, not a dollar less than they are now in their development of the turbo V6 engines. So, giving me the choice for a modified V8 or an all new V6 with turbo, both for the same money, I'll take the second one. I would even say it's years too late, but better late than never.

[otbsti]

For the sake of argument, I'm all for the move back to turbo engines. We'll never see the power crazed motors like the late 80's, but it is a hell of a lot better than the lousy V8's that are stuck at the current level of tuning. In regards to the "green-ness" of this motor change, it's debatable, but turbo motors are generally accepted as the most efficient motors because they aren't wasting the exhaust energy. In terms of emissions, they can be as clean or as dirty as the manufacturers or the regulations allow. I think a lot of this change comes down to real world relevance and the trickle down affect that these motors can/could have. It's a move to get more manufacturers potentially involved because let's face it, the current V8's have little relevance to the future of automobiles. BMW is switching the M3 over to a turbo motor, Porsche is one of the pioneers of turbo motors, Lamborghini will no longer make a V12 motor, instead they will be going to smaller displacement turbo motor... see the trend here? Just my .02 to stir the pot a little.

[Dragonfly]

Tomba,
do you honestly believe that the new engines will be different and represent a showcase of the manufacturer?

Rules and requirements are so tightly placed that there's no space for creativity and innovation. Inevitably, under those restrictions, engineers in different offices will come to almost identical solutions.
And I think the main driving force behind all this is fear. Yes, fear. Fear to lose the comfortable routine life and welfare. From the team heads up to the FIA.