BBC: F1's Greatest Driver

[JimClarkFan]

This is kind of what I'm saying. Stick a Ham or Alonso in the RBR car and you also have them dominating as well. Therefore I don't think it correct to say it is a 'Vettel' era. Statistically that may be correct, but in reality he isn't even the best driver by almost everyones subjective measure.

Keep telling yourself that often enough, and I'm sure it will become reality on your mind

How about you create a poll then. ''Who is the best driver on the current F1 paddock'' and see what it says. Might as well put your 'money' where your mouth is.

Speaking of which, do you know the meaning of unambiguous? Let me help you:
"Not open to more than one interpretation."

Again you're using your own interpretation of my words and trying to force that meaning on me as if it were my own.
I know what I meant, and I suspect many others did as well given the context of the sentence within my post and the others I subsequently posted. Not sure what you are trying to accomplish here, my position hasn't changed. But I'm sure you'll want the last word.

So there is no objective difference to mention between the two? None whatsoever?
There is more to objectivity then statistics, i.e. comparing circumstances, comparing what they do, comparing what happened around them. But aparently you are only interested in opinions, and you can't even get those right.

This is complete rubbish.
Statistics are purely objective, you cannot take into account circumstances or the 'Adrian Newey factor' unless you can control for it. You also can't have a purely objective argument about how good a driver is because it cannot account for context despite what you might think. Unless you get all drivers together in the same spec car at the same time and get them to race you can never truly have an objective argument. So stop fooling yourself otherwise.

[f1316]

The problem here is that in stating a point, people often overstate it. Vettel is obviously not just a good midfield driver and clearly one of the top three drivers currently driving. But that also doesn't make him the best driver currently driving or the eighth best of all time.

The article itself is strangely written too. It keeps talking about how this or that remains to be seen about Vettel, which is in contrast to Alonso, Hakkinen or Ascari, all of whom are double world champions also, and all of whom we can be more sure about in terms of their ability in all areas.

So I think it's an odd choice at this point in his career. He does have the potential to be one of the greats, but because of his age and the fact we've only ever seen him win in a top car (the one Toro Rosso win aside) it still remains to be seen if he's all-time top ten.

[SiLo]

Vettel should not be in top ten, and should be below Hamilton and Alonso. I know he may have better statistics and what not, but I don't feel that should really come into it that much. In Schumachers case, you can't deny that he was one of the best, he still had to race against the likes of Senna, Hill, Alonso, Hakkinen, Raikkonen. And he has beaten them all in some way, although of course, they all beat him too but that's besides the point.

I'd be surprised if we saw Hill on this list, he was a good racer, but the car he was driving was very good. Same for Vettel really, I know he got that race win in the Torro Rosso, but that was almost a carbon copy of the Red Bull at the time, since then he has easily had the best car for the most part, and the tyres, lack of refuelling and reliability have changed everything a lot. We rarely see races won by 30-40 seconds anymore because they have to spend so much time cruising around saving tyres, saving fuel, saving the engine, saving the gearbox.

We have seen Alonso win in a car that shouldn't, and seen Hamilton do the same, it's that argument that is being recycled by everyone, they have simply won in a crap car and Vettel hasn't really had to do that.

[Nando]

If we talk pure raw, talent then Hamilton is alone.
what he did in 07 was unreal, unheard of. the way he attacked Kerbs what on another level.
Makes you wonder why we have shitty kerbs today and shitty tires (in terms of sensitivity and longevity)

My sig says it all..

[Red Schneider]

If we talk pure raw, talent then Hamilton is alone.
what he did in 07 was unreal, unheard of. the way he attacked Kerbs what on another level.
Makes you wonder why we have shitty kerbs today and shitty tires (in terms of sensitivity and longevity)

My sig says it all..

It's just too bad he doesn't have a brain to go along with it. 2007 is probably still his best year. I was actually a huge fan of his initially (only started following F1 seriously at the 2007 Canadian GP) because what he did was utterly amazing. I cheered for him hard through the end of 2008, but my support for him (and McLaren along with it) has really waned since.

On the topic of this thread, I think Alberto Ascari is a criminally underrated driver.

[snoop1050]

If we talk pure raw, talent then Hamilton is alone.
what he did in 07 was unreal, unheard of. the way he attacked Kerbs what on another level.
Makes you wonder why we have shitty kerbs today and shitty tires (in terms of sensitivity and longevity)

My sig says it all..

unheard of if you didnt want f1 during the 90's perhaps

[Nando]

If we talk pure raw, talent then Hamilton is alone.
what he did in 07 was unreal, unheard of. the way he attacked Kerbs what on another level.
Makes you wonder why we have shitty kerbs today and shitty tires (in terms of sensitivity and longevity)

My sig says it all..

unheard of if you didnt want f1 during the 90's perhaps

Who else have as a rookie come into a top team as a rookie, had a fresh 2 time world champion there then proceeded to match him throughout the whole season?

I´ve never seen anyone take curbs like this either,
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpcRXJPEL6s[/youtube]

Maybe i haven´t paid enough attention

[FoxHound]

Vettel better than Alonso? What a joke... And I'm not a huge fan of the Spaniard (but I admit he's damn good).

Couldn't agree more. And once again us Brits underplaying his value in the all time list. I Cannot see how Vettel's 2 titles in by far superior machinery is worth more than those of Alonso, who brought the curtain down on Schumacher's 5 titles in a row.
Yes he had the car, as all champions do. But he did not have a crushing advantage, as Vettel.
Could this be the BBC showing their bias over what happened in 2007?
And if Alonso triumphs this year, will the BBC write another list for next year?

[snoop1050]

If we talk pure raw, talent then Hamilton is alone.
what he did in 07 was unreal, unheard of. the way he attacked Kerbs what on another level.
Makes you wonder why we have shitty kerbs today and shitty tires (in terms of sensitivity and longevity)

My sig says it all..

unheard of if you didnt want f1 during the 90's perhaps

Who else have as a rookie come into a top team as a rookie, had a fresh 2 time world champion there then proceeded to match him throughout the whole season?

I´ve never seen anyone take curbs like this either,


Maybe i haven´t paid enough attention

how many rookies started in a top with the best car on the grid? driving a good car isnt hard its how well you handle a poor car that counts.

the whole team including its leader were against alonso aswell... but im sure that had no bearing at all

[Nando]

how many rookies started in a top with the best car on the grid? driving a good car isnt hard its how well you handle a poor car that counts.

the whole team including its leader were against alonso aswell... but im sure that had no bearing at all

You mean like in 2009(first half) and 2010?

No they weren´t.... If anything it was Hamilton who thought the team had prevented him from racing Alonso in Monaco.
FIA did an investigation because of Hamilton´s words, not Alonsos.

[Websta]

I feel they are valuing Vettel's youth too much,especially considering that he did not handle his inexperience very well as it was on full display on many occasions in 2010. I can't see any other reason to place him above Alonso. I think that he does deserve to be on the list, but should swap places with Alonso and then drop a few more places.

[jdlive]

He's proving again this weekend in FP he's the only king. Look where Webber is in the same car. No one is as fast as Vettel.

That's even not taking into account the RB8 is not a top 3 car this season.

[Websta]

[beelsebob]

He's proving again this weekend in FP he's the only king. Look where Webber is in the same car. No one is as fast as Vettel.

Okay, so you're asserting that if you have a weekend where you dominated free practice and beat your team mate in all of them, then you're clearly a great driver? Both Alonso and Hamilton have done that, as have many other drivers... Why are they not as high up?

That's even not taking into account the RB8 is not a top 3 car this season.

It certainly is at tracks with 90° corners and lots of traction zones. See Valencia and Monaco.

[JimClarkFan]

If we talk pure raw, talent then Hamilton is alone.
what he did in 07 was unreal, unheard of. the way he attacked Kerbs what on another level.
Makes you wonder why we have shitty kerbs today and shitty tires (in terms of sensitivity and longevity)

My sig says it all..

unheard of if you didnt want f1 during the 90's perhaps

Who else have as a rookie come into a top team as a rookie, had a fresh 2 time world champion there then proceeded to match him throughout the whole season?

On the face of it this is true I guess, they did finish on even points, but Alonso was battling Ron Dennis and Lewis for much of the season, and already knew he was on his way out mid season.

In otherwords I don't feel we got to see the best of Alonso at Mclaren during that, I also for that matter don't think we got to see the best of Lewis either.

He's proving again this weekend in FP he's the only king. Look where Webber is in the same car. No one is as fast as Vettel.

That's even not taking into account the RB8 is not a top 3 car this season.

P3, in perhaps the fastest car this weekend, and it is a track that suits red bull, Horner has said as much