Glance at speedometers to enter corners at the right speed?

[JimClarkFan]

Hundreds of hours with a computer game still can't substitute half an hour in a humble but real go kart.

Yep, they're entirely different things... I can't for the life of me reliably lap in computer games, but I'm pretty damn quick in a go-kart.

Ever been an F1technet meetup for karting?

[beelsebob]

Hundreds of hours with a computer game still can't substitute half an hour in a humble but real go kart.

Yep, they're entirely different things... I can't for the life of me reliably lap in computer games, but I'm pretty damn quick in a go-kart.

Ever been an F1technet meetup for karting?

Now that sure as hell would be fun!

[flynfrog]

If they're not needed, then why do all drivers seemingly have car speed in KMH as one of the displayed parameters on their dash...?

Surely some actually useful info could go there, seeing as how limited the dash displays are now?

Most drivers have lap time deltas and gear selection displayed.

Lap delta on the right panel.
Gear selection in the middle panel.
Speed in the left panel, changing to KERS% when discharging.

This seems to be what all the onboards this year show.

Are you sure you are not seeing RPM?

Or are you talking about the popup when they show on board video?

I have never had a need to look at how fast I was going into a corner in a real car on a track. Your other senses are going to tell you way more than a number on a display.

[raymondu999]

Double post

[raymondu999]

While I've never driven an F1 car before, in my track experience you feel the speed. You judge from the feedback you're getting whether you're entering a corner too hot or not. Of course judgment also plays a part, to help judge when to turn in, brake etc.

But I've never "thought" "ok, I enter now at 116kph and hold speed through the long apex."

It's not like a video game because you're more responding to tactile feedback - you don't go for a "trial and error" style of driving to see if the car is planted with x kph apex speed, versus under/oversteery at y kph apex speed. It's more an instantaneous reaction that you do.

[fiohaa]

Hundreds of hours with a computer game still can't substitute half an hour in a humble but real go kart.

ill have to completely disagree with that.
if youre talking about games on a games console - fine.

but a good race on a pc sim racing game is infinitely better.

- i take it by 'humble' you mean an arrive and drive go kart? even the twin engine ones you might get at an outdoor kart are truely awful. They have maybe 11hp in total, and after 10 minutes you'll end up driving around the entire circuit almost flat out.
For Eg, at Buckmore park in one of their twin engined prokarts, I can think of only 2 corners where you have to use the brakes.

its pretty pathetic.

Something better, like the club100 championship or Dmax arrive and drive championships, cost 100-150 each time. They are a total rip off.

Easykart is the next logical step. And you're looking at 5k a season.

A decent formula 1 simracing game and a mod, like the one we use in the formula simracing league, gives you massively competitive racing, and its totally free. The physics are driveable, as you'd expect them to be, and it takes huge skill to find that tenth or 2 that can put you on pole.

In development currently is rfactor 2, and Assetto Corsa is due to come out soon and looks sensational (google it).

You need a force feedback wheel (logitech G25, £120) and a good pc, but after that...its free. And infinitely more entertaining than half an hour in a god awful arrive and drive go kart.

As for looking at the speedo - no, real drivers dont look at it mid corner or anything, and we certainly dont in game. They do it off feel - we have a little bit off feel of grip through the FFB wheel but its mainly visual. Assetto Corsa (the sequel to Netkar pro - which I advise everyone to play, its about 15 euros to download) has a huge amount of feel, allowing you to balance throttle and brake on the limit of adhesion.

The only time we assess apex speeds is when comparing setup with the telemetry we have to use to be competitive on sim-race day.

[beelsebob]

Hundreds of hours with a computer game still can't substitute half an hour in a humble but real go kart.

ill have to completely disagree with that.
if youre talking about games on a games console - fine.

but a good race on a pc sim racing game is infinitely better.

- i take it by 'humble' you mean an arrive and drive go kart? even the twin engine ones you might get at an outdoor kart are truely awful. They have maybe 11hp in total, and after 10 minutes you'll end up driving around the entire circuit almost flat out.
For Eg, at Buckmore park in one of their twin engined prokarts, I can think of only 2 corners where you have to use the brakes.

Then you're driving at crap circuits with with crap carts.

[fiohaa]

Hundreds of hours with a computer game still can't substitute half an hour in a humble but real go kart.

ill have to completely disagree with that.
if youre talking about games on a games console - fine.

but a good race on a pc sim racing game is infinitely better.

- i take it by 'humble' you mean an arrive and drive go kart? even the twin engine ones you might get at an outdoor kart are truely awful. They have maybe 11hp in total, and after 10 minutes you'll end up driving around the entire circuit almost flat out.
For Eg, at Buckmore park in one of their twin engined prokarts, I can think of only 2 corners where you have to use the brakes.

Then you're driving at crap circuits with with crap carts.

.....well youve quoted a snip of my full post, and taken it totally out of context.
i clearly go on to explain what you get for your money further up the catergories.

nice one.

on top of that...i even say right at the beginning 'i take it you mean arrive and drive'.....so thats why that paragraph was talking about arrive and drive karting...and this is arrive and drive karting regardless of the circuit.

I even MENTION buckmore park...one of the best tracks in the UK.

(sigh)

[PlatinumZealot]

F1 cars and F1 computer games are very different things...

If one needs the speedometer in a F1 computer game, they're probably not very fast.

Hey, I agree with you (for once hehe). Experienced gamers don't use the speedo. After a while you can "feel" by visual perception of course, how fast the car will enter the corner. For real cars though, it is the simliar to video games, but there are additional senses like the rectus-humoungus.

[mnmracer]

F1 cars and F1 computer games are very different things...

If one needs the speedometer in a F1 computer game, they're probably not very fast.

Hey, I agree with you (for once hehe). Experienced gamers don't use the speedo. After a while you can "feel" by visual perception of course, how fast the car will enter the corner. For real cars though, it is the simliar to video games, but there are additional senses like the rectus-humoungus.

[Cam]

While I've never driven an F1 car before, in my track experience you feel the speed. You judge from the feedback you're getting whether you're entering a corner too hot or not. Of course judgment also plays a part, to help judge when to turn in, brake etc.

But I've never "thought" "ok, I enter now at 116kph and hold speed through the long apex."

It's not like a video game because you're more responding to tactile feedback - you don't go for a "trial and error" style of driving to see if the car is planted with x kph apex speed, versus under/oversteery at y kph apex speed. It's more an instantaneous reaction that you do.

Driving is as much about rhythm than anything else. Once you're out of that rhythm, lap times usually increase. When you're in 'the zone' subtle cues can work brilliantly (such as indicator lights when under REM sleep). With that train of thought, I've been wondering if there's any possible benefit of using audio tones to assist a driver. For example, you could play a staged countdown of tones 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 that is in sync with the speed and position of the car relative to the breaking point of the corner. This countdown could help to maximise the exact time you need to break at each corner, each and every time.

Whether or not this is legal in F1 would be interesting and whether or not it would work anyway?

[raymondu999]

should be legal. They do have a tone to notify the driver when he can enable DRS, to my knowledge, and they use tones to notify a driver when to shift (the tones increase in frequency as you near the shift point)

I agree a rhythm can be very good - but IMO a part of it also has to be instantaneous in terms of feel, which is one of the difficulties of wet driving (as the track is generally drying or getting wetter - it's very rarely on the equilibrium balance of staying stagnant)

[Hobbs04]

should be legal. They do have a tone to notify the driver when he can enable DRS, to my knowledge, and they use tones to notify a driver when to shift (the tones increase in frequency as you near the shift point)

I agree a rhythm can be very good - but IMO a part of it also has to be instantaneous in terms of feel, which is one of the difficulties of wet driving (as the track is generally drying or getting wetter - it's very rarely on the equilibrium balance of staying stagnant)

I thought the 18k rpm angry v8 behind the driver was loud enough, but seriously has anyone here met someone who can play an instrument by ear. I do and it's amazing. The slightest blip of throttle before a spin is all these drivers may feel.

I bet these drivers know difference when they are 17500'rpm or 18000.

[raymondu999]

It could be loud enough, but in a sport where tenths and hundredths of a second can be the difference between pole and p5, every little bit counts

[mzivtins]

I've been plying instruments for years, after investing in my own studio i do understand the point being made. But there is a flaw. When to change gear could be all over the place, especially back when the driver could change the rev limit of the engine, it would be like trying to play along to someone who is always changing the BPM.

The beeps are only really the drivers metronome, its there, you hear it but without ever concentrating on it.

The DRS has to be a beep in the ear, could you imagine what that white line must look like going past you at 150+mph

Plus it's not always about being louder, the beeps will be designed to be in the frequency range that is not produced elsewhere in the car at any point, this is the same for metronome timers in professional studios, they tend to be made up of some very steep frequency selection of horrible high-mids to crass-trebles... that way no matter what instrument your are playing, the metronome will still cut through