Fastest F1 driver of all time?

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SeijaKessen
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Re: Fastest F1 driver of all time?

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snoop1050 wrote:
Senna at Estoril in 1985 is the greatest wet weather drive in history. He lapped every driver on the grid save for Michele Alboreto who was over a minute behind.
coulthard denied msc lapping every driver in spa 1998 a true drivers circuit in the wet
That's an assumption since there's no proof he would have finished the race.

What happened if he passed Coulthard, then 2 laps later his engine blew up?

snoop1050
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Re: Fastest F1 driver of all time?

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SeijaKessen wrote:
snoop1050 wrote:
Senna at Estoril in 1985 is the greatest wet weather drive in history. He lapped every driver on the grid save for Michele Alboreto who was over a minute behind.
coulthard denied msc lapping every driver in spa 1998 a true drivers circuit in the wet
That's an assumption since there's no proof he would have finished the race.

What happened if he passed Coulthard, then 2 laps later his engine blew up?
what if he passed coulthard, then after 2 laps his engine didnt blow up which is more likely the case considering schumachers reliability record at the time.

he wouldnt have needed to finish the race to lap everyone either he was well on his way to doing it with almost half the race left

Nando
Nando
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Re: Fastest F1 driver of all time?

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snoop1050 wrote:considering schumachers reliability record at the time.
Correction: Ferrari´s.
"Il Phenomeno" - The one they fear the most!

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f1316
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Re: Fastest F1 driver of all time?

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Schumacher had some amazing victories in the wet, so did Senna, to say one race was better than the other is impossible given that both were held in completely different circumstances.

I'd list Spain '96 and Monaco '97 as equally good ones as the ill-fated Belgium '98 for Michael though.

And an oft overlooked one is China 2006 - considering how much slower his Bridgestones were in the conditions, his quali lap was phenomenal, as was that, the final win of his career.

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SeijaKessen
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Re: Fastest F1 driver of all time?

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snoop1050 wrote: what if he passed coulthard, then after 2 laps his engine didnt blow up which is more likely the case considering schumachers reliability record at the time.

he wouldnt have needed to finish the race to lap everyone either he was well on his way to doing it with almost half the race left
You should create a "What if?" topic where you can talk about that.

Nando
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Re: Fastest F1 driver of all time?

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In terms of wet races/wet wins the top 3 is this,

60% - Senna

40% - Schumacher
40% - Hamilton
"Il Phenomeno" - The one they fear the most!

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LionKing
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Re: Fastest F1 driver of all time?

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Nando wrote:In terms of wet races/wet wins the top 3 is this,

60% - Senna

40% - Schumacher
40% - Hamilton
Do you have the list of wet races?
40% for Hamilton seems very bogus to me....

Nando
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Re: Fastest F1 driver of all time?

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LionKing wrote: Do you have the list of wet races?
40% for Hamilton seems very bogus to me....
Nope sorry. He doesn´t have a particularly long career so it should not take long to do the calculations.

I don´t see that has a bogus number really. Monza and Silverstone 2008 were magnificent drives.
Especially Monza. 2 seconds a lap quicker the Vettel while in traffic, snatched 4 seconds out of Alonso on one single lap etc.

Silverstone 2011 was also quite unreal in how quick he got up to Button and Massa then was up fighting for the lead etc.
"Il Phenomeno" - The one they fear the most!

"2% of the world's population own 50% of the world's wealth."

snoop1050
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Re: Fastest F1 driver of all time?

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SeijaKessen wrote:
snoop1050 wrote: what if he passed coulthard, then after 2 laps his engine didnt blow up which is more likely the case considering schumachers reliability record at the time.

he wouldnt have needed to finish the race to lap everyone either he was well on his way to doing it with almost half the race left
You should create a "What if?" topic where you can talk about that.
we dont need to what if about hungary 1998. i believe only one person has ever done quali lap after quali lap clearly on the edge of insanity at every corner.

flat out speed over 1 lap proves your fast.
flat out speed over a whole stint is godlike

LionKing
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Re: Fastest F1 driver of all time?

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Nando wrote:
LionKing wrote: Do you have the list of wet races?
40% for Hamilton seems very bogus to me....
Nope sorry. He doesn´t have a particularly long career so it should not take long to do the calculations.

I don´t see that has a bogus number really. Monza and Silverstone 2008 were magnificent drives.
Especially Monza. 2 seconds a lap quicker the Vettel while in traffic, snatched 4 seconds out of Alonso on one single lap etc.

Silverstone 2011 was also quite unreal in how quick he got up to Button and Massa then was up fighting for the lead etc.
He won at Fuji 2007, Monaco 2008, Silverstone 2008, Spa 2010

There are so many wet races he did not win so I think %40 is way too high.
Monza 2008 (Vettel), China 2009 (Vettel), Australia 2010 (Button), China 2010 (Button), Korea 2010 (Alonso), Silverstone 2011 (Alonso), Hungary 2011 (Button), Canada 2011 (Button), Malaysia 2012 (Alonso), Monaco 2012 (Webber)

Nando
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Re: Fastest F1 driver of all time?

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SPA 08 he won regardless of what Ferrari International Assistance say.

Are those the full list of races where wet weather tires were used?
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Nando
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Re: Fastest F1 driver of all time?

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Here´s the list. Only problem is i forgot where i got it from :)
What i do know is that it´s not me who did it. I´m checking to see if i can find it somewhere.

Percentage of wet WDC race wins only.

60% - Ayrton Senna

40% - Lewis Hamilton
40% - Michael Schumacher

24% - Damon Hill
24% - Kimi Raikkonen

22% - Sebastian Vettel

16% - Keke Rosberg
15% - Nigel Mansell

9% - Rubens Barrichello
9% - Thierry Boutsen
9% - Alain Prost

P.S. this was posted before 2012 and can probably be a year old i don´t know.
"Il Phenomeno" - The one they fear the most!

"2% of the world's population own 50% of the world's wealth."

Nando
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Re: Fastest F1 driver of all time?

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Sorry for post-whoring here but i found it, worth it´s own post, Edit: seems it´s a different list, probably a more recent one.
Annoyed at yet another Schumi fanboy claiming he is the undisputed F1 rain master of all time, I did a little stat calculation tonight...

Some very interesting wet race stats (also for a pro-Senna vid explaining who F1's only rainmaster is), and on comparing a few drivers, I got some interesting results...

Basically I've been through every F1 wet race since 1981 and compared the form of Senna, Schumacher, Hamilton, Vettel, Mansell and Keke Rosberg (Rosberg subject to my sketchy knowledge of 1979 wet races) so far - all drivers known to be to be exceptional in the wet.

These stats are a win ratio and the number of points they would've scored on a 10-8-6 scoring system to make it all equal.

As this is to gauge wet race ability/talent/form I exclude races where the driver had a mechanical failure beyond their control, did not start or were disqualified/black flagged, but include races where they crashed by themselves with unforced (ran-out-of-talent) errors.

Senna wins 70.6% of wet races started, scoring an average of 6.5 points per race.
Schumacher wins 42.9%, average 6 points per race.
Hamilton wins 40%, average 5.1 points per race.
Rosberg wins 33%, average 5 points per race.
Vettel wins 25%, average 4.2 points per race.
Mansell wins 21.4%, average 4.4 points per race.

Points to note:
No surprise Senna is ontop. But he is ontop by miles with only 1 bad race of 20 - in Spain '92. And if he had been able to see Brundle's Brabham in Oz '89 in the spray instead of running into the back of him as Brundle pulled off-line to be lapped, instead of stay on it, that was a certain win. Also worth noting that Senna retired with mechanical failure with about 3 laps to go in Canada '89...

Schumacher made 9 unforced errors, putting himself out of the race and on one occasion Senna (which I didn't count toward Senna's unforced crash count as he was a totally innocent victim in France '92). Schumacher also scores a lot of points due to the massive number of wet races he started in and superb car reliability. Currently these stats count running to the back of Coulthard as his own fault, because we all know it was his fault, not Coulthard's (Coulthard stayed on the racing line, 100% the correct thing to do in heavy spray. Schumacher is an obvious for not admitting this ).

Mansell's record would've been massively better if it were not for Senna! (42.9% win ratio and average of 5 points per race. Yes, without Senna would've been equal with Schumacher). Nige also had a tonne of mechanical failures and actually would've/could've had a much better win and points score ratio anyway.

Hamilton's stats for talent purposes, include Belgium '08 as a win, simply because we all know it was and includes the likes of Nurburgring '07 where he aquaplaned off with about 5 others, but got going a lap down and finished 9th. Had he retired his stats would be better. His stats also include China '07 as his fault, not the teams'. Still, if he wins his next wet race, which is a distinct possibility, he will surpass Schumacher.

Vettel's record suffers somewhat due to 3 unforced errors spread from '07 - '09. More starts to wins will cure that, but like Mansell-Senna, he has Hamilton to deal with...

But like all stats, they could mean anything.


btw, wet race's were sourced from http://www.cliptheapex.com

btw 2, I make no apology for an error or two. It was really for my own info to prove to myself just how much better Senna was than Schumacher.

...Now, back to making my Senna Rain Master video with peace of mind that I was right in the first place!
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=783099
"Il Phenomeno" - The one they fear the most!

"2% of the world's population own 50% of the world's wealth."

LionKing
LionKing
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Joined: 26 Jun 2010, 22:03

Re: Fastest F1 driver of all time?

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This looks like an Senna fanboy's unsubstantiated article.

I think anyone who says 1998 was Schumacher's fault can not be trusted about anything in F1. It was Coulthard's fault at 1998 which he later admitted in an interview he would never do such a thing with his present experience:
"The reality is, I lifted to let him past me but I did it in heavy spray on the racing line. You should never do that. I would never do that now. In 1998 I didn't have the experience and knowledge - and I'd never had anyone run into the back of me."

On a curved section with low visibility and heavy rain he slowed on the racing line. Forget about F1 circuit that will cause an accident on a regular road.

No the list of races is not comprehensive. I just listed the ones I remembered, I am sure there will be few more. If you remember any more wet races Hamilton had won let me know. Otherwise if there are more races which another driver won, the percentage will go down more...

michika12
michika12
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Re: Fastest F1 driver of all time?

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According to wikipedia,

As of the 2012 Japanese Grand Prix, 125 different drivers have set a fastest lap in a Formula One Grand Prix.

Michael Schumacher holds the record, with 77 fastest laps between the 1992 Belgian Grand Prix and the 2012 German Grand Prix for Benetton, Ferrari and Mercedes.

Hmm Schumacher rocks! ^_^