HRT F112 Cosworth

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.

Will HRT be in Q2 in 2012?

Yes - at the start of the Season
16
5%
Yes - by Germany
22
7%
No - not in 2012
167
54%
Never!
103
33%
 
Total votes: 308

Petroltorque
Petroltorque
2
Joined: 27 Jul 2011, 18:18

Re: HRT F112 Cosworth

Post

I would love to know what is actually going on at HRT's Madrid Headquarters? As someone stated earlier; HRT have an F1 compliant car but not an F1 standard car, neither in design or build quality. If one accepts the argument that they foregoed KERS to concentrate on aero, why haven't they developped the big gain aero areas like front wing and downwash exhaust.
One hopes that next year's car will indeed be a clean sheet design incorporating these concepts but I fear it will be another year of compromise with externally commissioned design and late agreement on power train.

Huntresa
Huntresa
54
Joined: 03 Dec 2011, 11:33

Re: HRT F112 Cosworth

Post

What i dont get is why they cant make like a new FW that is upto F1 standard, i mean it would be hard to copy paste some other teams FW and even if it wasnt made to suit their car it would prob be better then what HRT has atm which is under Gp2 class FW.

cbbcisace
cbbcisace
0
Joined: 17 Jan 2011, 00:31

Re: HRT F112 Cosworth

Post

Petroltorque wrote:I would love to know what is actually going on at HRT's Madrid Headquarters? As someone stated earlier; HRT have an F1 compliant car but not an F1 standard car, neither in design or build quality. If one accepts the argument that they foregoed KERS to concentrate on aero, why haven't they developped the big gain aero areas like front wing and downwash exhaust.
One hopes that next year's car will indeed be a clean sheet design incorporating these concepts but I fear it will be another year of compromise with externally commissioned design and late agreement on power train.
Because they have a small budget, the smallest in F1, which they have had to spend a lot of it getting everything they needed to compete this year, don't forget Kolles took nearly all the staff away when he was let go and they have only just replaced them

I can assure you there is more going on at Caja Magica than there was last year in Kolles workshop.

plus I believe they don't trust what Holzer produced for them in the first place, so why spend money on it this year? when they are going to finish 12th anyway.

ESPImperium
ESPImperium
64
Joined: 06 Apr 2008, 00:08
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: HRT F112 Cosworth

Post

cbbcisace wrote:
Petroltorque wrote:I would love to know what is actually going on at HRT's Madrid Headquarters? As someone stated earlier; HRT have an F1 compliant car but not an F1 standard car, neither in design or build quality. If one accepts the argument that they foregoed KERS to concentrate on aero, why haven't they developped the big gain aero areas like front wing and downwash exhaust.
One hopes that next year's car will indeed be a clean sheet design incorporating these concepts but I fear it will be another year of compromise with externally commissioned design and late agreement on power train.
Because they have a small budget, the smallest in F1, which they have had to spend a lot of it getting everything they needed to compete this year, don't forget Kolles took nearly all the staff away when he was let go and they have only just replaced them, plus I believe they don't trust what Holzer produced for them in the first place, so why spend money on it this year, when they are going to finish 12th anyway.
Kolles took most of the staff indeed, they had 185 staff this time last year and starting this year they had arround 80-85 in order to get the car to testing and the first fly aways. Also Kolles took away with him about 70% of the tools and trackside resource as well, all that was left was the garrage shells and their fly away boxes and a handful of tools for each car. He also left all 3 of the F111 chassis and he kept the 2 F110 and the F110+ chassis for his own factory as settlement.

HRT have also had to get their HQ in Madrid fully equiped and also get the team tooled up as well, they spent €80,000 on 60 tyre warmers, they spent a reported €2.3m om getting the correct tools to work with and also a futher €6m on track side IT infrustructure as well as each car has a €100K rack to get it to run and there is a €1m master rack at each event as well. HRT have spent alot on the infrustructure and resource to get the team into a posistion to get into the correct place in years to come. They are taking about €6m to each GP and they only have a A Rig and a B Rig, unlike even Marussia and Caterham who both have a C Rig as well, HRT are slightly more contrived with IT gear and tools, as their budget is so much smaller.

Also they have spent a simmilar ammount of resource in getting their HQ tooled up correctly with the correct IT equiptment as well. They have spent arround €15m getting their Caja Majica HQ in Madrid into a sufficent standard that they can even be called a team. Marussia last year spent €10m on their move to the old Ascari factori in Banbury, Caterham have spent a estimated €23m moving from Hingham to Leafeald as well.

Id recon that HRT are building themselvs into a team this year, they have got a estimated 180 staff and a correctly tooled and infrustructure in place at their HQ now. Rumor has it that they are going to have a Williams supplied simulator in place at their HQ for next Febuary, and will also have the facility to manufacture small to medium composite parts for the F113 next year as well.

As for Holzer, they produced a F1 complient but sub standard car, however they have much less in unit cost per chassis than Carbotech for instance, you are talking about €200,000 a chassis i am led to belive. However carbotech are being brought back in to produce the F113 chassis. The F113 chassis files are with Carbotech as HRT want to get to the first test next year, and with most chassis taking 16 weeks to produce, HRT have submitted early this year as there isnt that much in terms of regulation change, infact there is zero change form this year to next. Many teams are choosing to test for the rest of the season, but HRT are limping the F112 to the end in Brazil and then taking a fresh sheet for 2013, as they need a new car and a new approach for 2013, whitch is what they are doing.

What HRT need is a driver that can take advantage of what PdlR is giving them in terms of set up as well, as Karthekeyn has just not done it all year again, however the €16m he has brought this year has been invested wisely by the team. However i think that Karthekeyn will end his F1 journey at the Indian GP as HRT are eger to try our Dani Clos for 2013, however they keep getting Sennas name put toward them for 2013 as well. Both of them could take advantage of the PdlR set up quite easily! And KERS for 2013 is a must for them, its 30Kg extra weight that the overweight F112 could not take, but the F113 needs it as its 30Kg extra for a half second a lap instant increase in pace.

C_Stonehouse
C_Stonehouse
0
Joined: 09 Aug 2012, 00:39

Re: HRT F112 Cosworth

Post

Given the poor performance of the F112 since Singapore, I think that they are just trying to focus a large amount of time on the F113. This year has been a dud for them. If they can start the year at Jerez less than 5s off the leading pace then they can consider that a success, but that could be a big ask. Unless they can get their car released in January it could be another poor start. De la Rosa will most likely be kept, the second car is pretty much a free for all because of the silly season. If someone just wants *a* seat in F1 they'll take it. But I can see their line up being DLR and KAR. Why change what works?

Petroltorque
Petroltorque
2
Joined: 27 Jul 2011, 18:18

Re: HRT F112 Cosworth

Post

cbbcisace wrote:
Petroltorque wrote:I would love to know what is actually going on at HRT's Madrid Headquarters? As someone stated earlier; HRT have an F1 compliant car but not an F1 standard car, neither in design or build quality. If one accepts the argument that they foregoed KERS to concentrate on aero, why haven't they developped the big gain aero areas like front wing and downwash exhaust.
One hopes that next year's car will indeed be a clean sheet design incorporating these concepts but I fear it will be another year of compromise with externally commissioned design and late agreement on power train.
Because they have a small budget, the smallest in F1, which they have had to spend a lot of it getting everything they needed to compete this year, don't forget Kolles took nearly all the staff away when he was let go and they have only just replaced them

I can assure you there is more going on at Caja Magica than there was last year in Kolles workshop.

plus I believe they don't trust what Holzer produced for them in the first place, so why spend money on it this year? when they are going to finish 12th anyway.
If you recall I said that this year's car was a "Hack chassis" and I have been proven right. I would also question the quality of HRT's aero staff. The updates they have introduced have changed a car with inherent oversteer to one with inherent understeer and I really don't know which is worse.
Granted Thesan Capital have used a lot of the team's funding to setup it's own race hub but they don't seem to be reaping any rewards . The Caja Majica seems to be some type of event horizon swallowing euros at an alarming rate. At some stage you have to introduce critical development parts. You have to work from known variables THIS YEAR so that the components for next season's car will work. I am at a loss as to why they have never tried to update their front wing concept. It is the most AERODYNAMICALLY CRITICAL part of the car.
It is a vicious circle for this team. They need to attract major sponsoship or drivers with backing. To do that they have to demonstrate some degree of on track progress, they can't use " Next years will be better" as a marketting tool as no sane individual will buy goods unsold.

ESPImperium
ESPImperium
64
Joined: 06 Apr 2008, 00:08
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: HRT F112 Cosworth

Post

Petroltorque wrote:
cbbcisace wrote:
Petroltorque wrote:I would love to know what is actually going on at HRT's Madrid Headquarters? As someone stated earlier; HRT have an F1 compliant car but not an F1 standard car, neither in design or build quality. If one accepts the argument that they foregoed KERS to concentrate on aero, why haven't they developped the big gain aero areas like front wing and downwash exhaust.
One hopes that next year's car will indeed be a clean sheet design incorporating these concepts but I fear it will be another year of compromise with externally commissioned design and late agreement on power train.
Because they have a small budget, the smallest in F1, which they have had to spend a lot of it getting everything they needed to compete this year, don't forget Kolles took nearly all the staff away when he was let go and they have only just replaced them

I can assure you there is more going on at Caja Magica than there was last year in Kolles workshop.

plus I believe they don't trust what Holzer produced for them in the first place, so why spend money on it this year? when they are going to finish 12th anyway.
If you recall I said that this year's car was a "Hack chassis" and I have been proven right. I would also question the quality of HRT's aero staff. The updates they have introduced have changed a car with inherent oversteer to one with inherent understeer and I really don't know which is worse.
Granted Thesan Capital have used a lot of the team's funding to setup it's own race hub but they don't seem to be reaping any rewards . The Caja Majica seems to be some type of event horizon swallowing euros at an alarming rate. At some stage you have to introduce critical development parts. You have to work from known variables THIS YEAR so that the components for next season's car will work. I am at a loss as to why they have never tried to update their front wing concept. It is the most AERODYNAMICALLY CRITICAL part of the car.
It is a vicious circle for this team. They need to attract major sponsoship or drivers with backing. To do that they have to demonstrate some degree of on track progress, they can't use " Next years will be better" as a marketting tool as no sane individual will buy goods unsold.
Ill put it this way, would you rather spend €250,000 on the R&D and production of a new front wing and be a couple of thenths quicker this year of would you rather invest that money and time into a front wing that can deliver twice or three times that in time terms for the next car, on a car that has the potential to be a far better car and not the "hack" that the HRT team is presently operationg with, a car that you will not be carrying much over from appart from the gearbox, engine and steering wheel?

Sometimes it is the greater good to sacrifice a poor car to get more resource on the next car. Look at Sauber last year, the stopped at Silverstone and then came into 2013 kicking and screaming whilst Force India took the P6 away from them in the constructors title and this year have produced a under developed car that coiuld have been so much better.

Petroltorque
Petroltorque
2
Joined: 27 Jul 2011, 18:18

Re: HRT F112 Cosworth

Post

You can buy into the jam tomorrow concept. I'll wait and see what they end up with. It's simply too easy to have good facilities and produce a lemon of a car. The quality of the design engineers determines how good the car will be. This year you need to run Coanda exhausts to keep the rear tyres in their operating temperature window. The front wing determines the critical flow to the undercut sidepods, floor and diffuser. These concepts are transferable to future designs.

JGomezH
JGomezH
2
Joined: 15 Mar 2010, 12:05
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: HRT F112 Cosworth

Post

I think the team is progressing, (watching the budget they handle), in fact ...

Image

the progrees relative to last year (F112 vs F111) and to the Q1 best time is clear.

The sad part is they can't leave the 23-24 positions.

Petroltorque
Petroltorque
2
Joined: 27 Jul 2011, 18:18

Re: HRT F112 Cosworth

Post

It's not really a valid comparison as you're comparing two different tyre formulae and you haven't made an adjustment for the ban on off throttle EBDs which has knock a second off this year's fastest times.. I also believe this year the team's reliability is worse than last year with 4 races to go.

astracrazy
astracrazy
31
Joined: 04 Mar 2009, 16:04

Re: HRT F112 Cosworth

Post

i don't the above graph shows anything relevant because its based on the fastest drivers times (the top teams are slower this year due to no ebd). It would be better to compare HRT 2011 and 2012 lap times

ESPImperium
ESPImperium
64
Joined: 06 Apr 2008, 00:08
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: HRT F112 Cosworth

Post

Last year they did update much more than this, but when compaired to stillborn 2010 season where they updated the car twice, firstly with the wind mirrors and lastly with loosing 45Kg in the chassis, also the F110 had a last upgrade, that was a change in livery!

2010: 13 DNFs
2011: 11 DNFs
2012: 9 DNFs

The only problem is that why polish a turd when you can invest in a better car for 2013. The last team to polis a turdd was Toyota in 2006/2007, the TF106/TF107 both and a inherant oversteer entry and a snap understeer that was only solved by adding weight to the car to alter the weight distrubution. They with one year to go to the present aero regs changed to a clean sheet design and came out fighting with a semi decent car. The fact that about a third of the HRT Design team were involved in the TF109/TF110 design team is encouraging, it shows that they are trying to get better from within, nursing a turd/lemon to the end of the season and then scrapping it for a new design. Top teams can develop a decent car to be a good one in about 6 to 10 races, mid feild ones can do the same, but it takes about 10 to 14 races for them. The likes of HRT can polish a lemon all season long and not improve, they need a good car at the beginning, and look for incremental gains. And with what they have been doing this season in getting a HQ thats better than what they ever had is what id like to say is off track improvement. Sauber last year spent €14m on new factory equiptment and habve improved this year. Sometimes a longer view is needed in the grand scheme of things, and for the likes of HRT, Marussia and caterham they ahve all improved their facility off track in the past 12 months and they will soon improve on track as a result. Lets face it, you can bring up a family of 5 children in a 2 bed flat, you need a 4 bedroom semi at least. Theese teams were all stillborn to a point, and have all taken till now to make their minds up and all become a propper "team" in F1.

Resourse grow a team quicker, and theese teams are all now getting the factories and facilities they need to grow, all they need is another 12 to 18 months to show what they truely can produce before a assumption can be done from them. Its like operating a buisness, you will make a loss in the first 3 years before you break even in the 4th and start making a profit in the 5th year. I said that it would be at least 5 years before any one of theese teams could start to close gap into the pack consistantly enough to become a propper F1.

Petroltorque
Petroltorque
2
Joined: 27 Jul 2011, 18:18

Re: HRT F112 Cosworth

Post

HRT suffered 9 mechanical failures last year. They have already suffered 8 this year.

beelsebob
beelsebob
85
Joined: 23 Mar 2011, 15:49
Location: Cupertino, California

Re: HRT F112 Cosworth

Post

Petroltorque wrote:HRT suffered 9 mechanical failures last year. They have already suffered 8 this year.
It could be worse, they could have as many as McLaren.

ESPImperium
ESPImperium
64
Joined: 06 Apr 2008, 00:08
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: HRT F112 Cosworth

Post

Petroltorque wrote:HRT suffered 9 mechanical failures last year. They have already suffered 8 this year.
9 Mechanichal failures?

Mechanichal:
http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2012/878/
http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2012/879/
http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2012/874/
http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2012/874/ - 2x Brakes

Other:
http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2012/877/ - Accedent
http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2012/875/ - Accedent
http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2012/869/ - Accedent Damage
http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2012/868/ - Wheel Nut

I can only count 5 mechanichal failures, as i count the wheel nut as human error.