Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
raymondu999 wrote:The key IMO will be the first 3 races. If Vettel can outqualify and outrace Alonso for the first 2 or 3 races in a straight fight (without mechanical issues for Alonso, etc) then IMO Alonso will pop a vein.
If the car is dominant - or at least a competitive frontrunner - and we have the two in a showdown, I think it tips the scales to Vettel - IMO he will have more poles and romp off into the distance.
If we have a Ferrari that's slow, but not malhandling, I think it'll be close between the two. If it's a car with handling issues and steps out of line in the corners a lot, I think Alonso will have the upper hand.
I think the common case for a fast ferrari will actually be vettel getting pole, alonso second, vettel trying to break away, and getting 2-3 seconds ahead, then alonso putting in 2/3 quick laps at the pit stops, and getting the jump.
MarkedOne8 wrote:I think there is no point for Vettel to team up with Ferrari.
About factory teams-engines, Renault doesn't have factory team right now.
Hangaku wrote:So Alonso doesn't want Hamilton as his team mate, but he doesn't mind having Vettel. This means that Alonso regards Vettel as "another Massa"? Don't know how long Fred will be at Ferrari, but if this does happen, I fully expect him to be #1 driver until his contract expires, by which time Vettel will have been brain-washed enough to be their next #1 driver.
It'll be very interesting to see Alonso and Vettel at the same team... My bet, Vettel outqualifies Alonso reasonably regularly, but Alonso beats him in race results.
It will be another Hamilton/Alonso style feud 2007.
They are both very good, Vettel is a better racer than people give him credit, and Alonso is a better qualifier that people give him credit.
They will be evenly matched.
I have an issue with this move though, if Vettel does go to Ferrari, and it is performing well what does he prove? Nothing. It's Alonso building the team around him, it will be Alonso's car. Vettel is going to seem like a bit of parasite if he jumps ship from a poorly performing red bull next season (fat chance at that anyway).
This does seem like a somewhat unlikely scenario, but Hamilton left McLaren for Mercedes, so who knows. As much as Alonso has built up Ferrari around himself, Vettel has done the same at RedBull, why would he throw that away? Everyone can see that Alonso is struggling against the limits of his car, and as has been mentioned, Ferrari haven't been dominant since about '08, RedBull on the other hand have Adrian Newey and consecutive dominant seasons.
But supposing this did happen, I don't think it would be like '07 all over again for Alonso. Although Alonso probably reacted poorly in '07 on a few occasions, it is understandable because Hamilton was groomed within the team and was Dennis' darling and Alonso was defending a title alongside a rookie teammate, so it was a little more complicated than just two top talents in one team. I think Alonso and Vettel would probably split results, they both cannot help but put in good performances, but I might give the qualifying edge to Vettel. As far as their relationship goes, I think they would get along, I remember Alonso congratulating Vettel after his win in '08, but I also remember Vettel mentioning that Alonso didn't congratulate him after he won the championship in '10, so maybe it is a little complicated, but I also remember hearing that typically any drivers aren't close friends due to competitiveness. Vettel anyway I think would most likely be comfortable, that is one of his great qualities, his easy-going manner. On a somewhat related note, taken from the post-race interview after Korea, Vettel had this to say: "Whether we have a mental advantage or not, psychological advantage or not I don't really care. I'm not into those kind of things. "
So I think it would be very interesting to watch, though I am skeptical it would happen. I was really happy to see Hamilton and Alonso paired in '07 because they put in so many great results, I wish they could have worked it out so Alonso could have stayed, but that said I think to see Vettel paired with Alonso would also be really exciting to watch.
Hat off for taking the challenge head on, but IMO its risky for Vettel while Alonso's there.
I feel if he goes there and loses out to Alonso then he could lose face and his WDC will all be put down to the car. Because everyone wonders, is it him or the car.
astracrazy wrote:I feel if he goes there and loses out to Alonso then he could lose face and his WDC will all be put down to the car. Because everyone wonders, is it him or the car.
That's pretty unrealistic - he will be close to Alonso at worst, and at best slightly edge him. He has consistently outclassed a very capable driver in Mark Webber already, there's no reason at the moment to think he won't be able to match/rival Alonso.
edit: I didn't mean Webber was in Alonso's league - I meant that considering the gap between Vettel and a pretty strong driver like Webber, he should be able to match Alonso. To put it another way, I don't think Alonso would have outperformed Webber anymore than Vettel has managed to - that's my logic
Last edited by Websta on 15 Oct 2012, 15:56, edited 1 time in total.
astracrazy wrote:I feel if he goes there and loses out to Alonso then he could lose face and his WDC will all be put down to the car. Because everyone wonders, is it him or the car.
That's pretty unrealistic - he will be close to Alonso at worst, and at best slightly edge him. He has consistently outclassed a very capable driver in Mark Webber already, there's no reason at the moment to think he won't be able to match/rival Alonso.
i don't think Webber and Alonso is a comparison worth using. Webber is a very good number 2, no matter what him or his team say on camera - you can see it is the case
What Vettel has in Red Bull is a team who are happy to favour him to get what he wants and a driver in Webber who can't argue different because he seems to always be off form when Vettel hits it (look since Webber signed his contract). He won't have anything like that at Ferrari, if he isn't on top or level Alonso will basically bully himself in control
I'm not saying it will happen just it could very easily.
beelsebob wrote:I think the common case for a fast ferrari will actually be vettel getting pole, alonso second, vettel trying to break away, and getting 2-3 seconds ahead, then alonso putting in 2/3 quick laps at the pit stops, and getting the jump.
I personally think that you're underrating Vettel's race pace, especially clean-air race pace. I honestly don't think Alonso's clean-air race pace, or stint management, are better than Vettel's.
But really, we'll never know until they've had at least a common teammate in F1 - which is one of the reasons why I was so keen to see Mark Webber in a 2013 Ferrari.
astracrazy wrote:now been denied by Luca di Montezemolo
Of course, in 1995 Ferrari denied that Schumacher was moving to Ferrari, and Montezemelo and Luca Colajanni denied in mid-2009 (3 weeks before the Alonso-Ferrari announcement) that Alonso was moving to Ferrari.
MarkedOne8 wrote:I think there is no point for Vettel to team up with Ferrari.
About factory teams-engines, Renault doesn't have factory team right now.
Yes they do – RedBull.
I don't agree about that, but that would be even better reason for Sebastian to stay in RB.
Vettel is after the MS records and he is driving for the best team at the moment. As long as RBR continue to provide him with the right bull and support he needs, there is no chance he will go to Ferrari. plus 2014 regulation is still up in the air, so I doubt driver in Vettel position will make any harsh and unnecessary risky decision.
perhaps this rumor is started by someone who is after Vettel seat at RBR.
bhallg2k wrote:I don't see Vettel moving to Ferrari simply because I don't think he wants that challenge. It's not his style.
While I get that you don't think he wants the challenge - I don't think it's our call to say whether or not it is his style.
Maybe Vettel isn't just there for the "challenge" - maybe he wants a change of pace. If he just wins 3 or 4 titles in a row - it may get a bit stale. It's like a chess player who almost "outgrows" the game by being too good. He beats his opponents in 10 moves flat (I exaggerate, but you get the point) - after a while it may get boring, and he looks for something different. Say, checkers. Backgammon. Chinese chess. etc etc.
I just think back to earlier this year when Red Bull brought two versions of the RB8 to Monaco: one with Coanda exhaust and one without. The former, which Webber chose, was fast but tricky. The latter, which Vettel chose, was (relatively) slow but stable. I think the results spoke for themselves.
If Vettel ever moves to Ferrari, he's likely going to get yearly doses of either "fast, but tricky" or just plain old "tricky," not to mention a teammate in Alonso who's widely considered to be as good or better by virtually every metric a driver can be measured. He'd have to get awfully bored with perpetually winning at Red Bull to even consider taking up such a challenge.
I think he's probably more inclined to stay at Red Bull and try to break as many records as he possibly can.
