Seasonal VW & Formula 1 Rumor

[FW17]

As I said in another thread, I don't see which frontrunning team would be looking for a new engine contract in the next few years. Maybe McLaren in 2016 at the earliest. But if you, as a car manufacturer, make the effort to go into F1 you have to be at the front or it's simply not worth it. Toyota, Honda and BMW all learned that lesson a couple of years ago and Mercedes' effort has so far been a failure despite being the 4th fastest of 12 different cars.

R8 vs 911
A8 vs Panamera

Just because they cost the same, you can't just go and say that the same people are going to buy them. Both pairs are comprised of very different cars so I don't think you can conclude "if A didn't exist, they would all buy B."

The manufacturers are too fixated on being a dominant winner discounting the value of participation on a world stage. Ferrari, Renault, Merc, Toyota, Honda and BMW cater to different sections of the market and at no moment a buyer is going to make a fanboy decision to buy one of their products based on their standing in the world championships. However it is nice to buy a product that is represented in the world championships.

[FoxHound]

As I said in another thread, I don't see which frontrunning team would be looking for a new engine contract in the next few years.

Red Bull? Along with Torro Rosso.

Red Bull only have 1 choice, Renault. And they are not exactly charmed by Renault either. And this is what happened after the alternator failures...
http://www.yallaf1.com/2012/09/21/alter ... -red-bull/

Renaults response? We will not be moved.

You can almost hear Marko calling Herr Ferdinand Piech

Mercedes or Ferrari will not supply them, and these reasons will not change in the next 4-5 years.
VW entering into F1 will cost a large sum of cash as they would be required to build their own engine development programme from scratch. They already have some know how, but an F1 engine building operation it is not.
To get to this stage, requires cash. And lots of it.

The VW group is all about strategical cannibalisation. For every segement they have a single platform for it's various marques. They cover the base, and stretch right through to the top. It leaves the customer with choice....Highly specced polo, are spartan A1?
A1-Polo-Ibiza-Fabia
A3-Golf-Leon
A4-Passat-Exeo-Octavia
A6-Superb-forthcoming spinoffs
A8-Phaeton(panamera seperate chassis-same class)
Q7-Touareg-Cayenne

It pays dividneds as the development costs are split between the different marques allowing greater margins of profit.
By coming to F1, VW will want bang for the buck, the same way they do with development of new models.

Audi beating Porsche is of no consequence if Audi is beating Mercedes. This is Audi's target demographic.
VW doing this for only one brand seems to go contrary to how they do business. They may go ahead with one brand initially, but I reckon there will be at least 2 VW brands if they decide to stay for any length of time.

[Nando]

Makes no sense frankly. I can´t see how it can be cheaper to field two manufacturers from the same group.
You can not share any information between the two teams, the engine is the only thing you can sell.

Porsche have way to much pride to run VW engines, that´s just not gonna happen.

So if the two manufacturers set up two F1 programs independent from each other it´s gonna cost twice as much and you will ultimately end up with one winner, one loser. It´s bad business in a pyramid-scheme.

[Raptor22]

Makes no sense frankly. I can´t see how it can be cheaper to field two manufacturers from the same group.
You can not share any information between the two teams, the engine is the only thing you can sell.

Porsche have way to much pride to run VW engines, that´s just not gonna happen.

So if the two manufacturers set up two F1 programs independent from each other it´s gonna cost twice as much and you will ultimately end up with one winner, one loser. It´s bad business in a pyramid-scheme.

Hence, one group engine for F1 with different cam covers and different teams supporting that brand.
I can't see Porsche goin git alone. They didn't in the 1983-1987 seasons, the engine was bankrolled by Mansor O'Jeh's companu Techniques d'Avant Garde (TAG) hence the name TAG-Porsche.
When Porsche did offer an engine that they bankrolled it was overweight, underpowered and they did not have the resources to develop it. remember Footwork Porsche?
If one has too much pride, then you had better be successful...

No way the VAG group is going to allow Porsche to embarass the brand with their own engine, paid for by Porsche. It will be a VAG engine with Porsche cam covers, or they won't do it. This way it gets the funding it needs and the Group can enjoy economy of scale in F1. Their WEC car will be petrol powered, Audi's will remain diesel powered with e-tron.

[Harvey]

Surely Lamborghini is the VAG brand with the most F1 friendly image?
They can then take the supercar brand battle to Ferrari and McLaren, and in the battle ground that they (currently) have all to themselves.

Don't forget Bugatti....

Bugatti sales/build figures

2005 5
2006 44
2007 81
2008 71
2009 50
2010 40
2011 30

Bugatti is not in a battle with anyone for there hypercar, unlike Lamborghini

Lamborghini
1999 265
2000 296
2001 297
2002 424
2003 1,305
2004 1,592
2005 1,600
2006 2,087
2007 2,406
2008 2,430
2009 1,515
2010 1,302
2011 1,602

Ferrari
1999 3,775
2000 4,070
2001 4,289
2002 4,236
2003 4,238
2004 4,975
2005 5,409
2006 5,671
2007 6,465
2008 6,587
2009 6,250
2010 6,461
2011 7,001

More to the point, Bugatti don't need to market their car at all. Whatever they build next will sell like hot cakes, despite costing the equivalent of a small country's national debt. Further more, their next car is most likely to be a super saloon, so won't benefit from motorsport based marketing either.

Lamborghini, however, seem to be the only VAG brand without a major sporting presence - not counting their one make series. All the other brands have a motorsport that seems to fit either their brand values or demonstrate their ability against their target competition on the road - Audi in DTM (against Merc and BMW) and at Le Mans (with hybrid and Quattro); VW in WRC (against Ford, Citroen and Mini) and Paris Dakar; Skoda in IRC; Porsche in various GT classes; Seat in BTCC and WTCC.

-------------------

With regards to the suggestion they couldn't field two brands in F1 cos of the expense: why would they have to develop two engine programs? What's stopping them setting up a non-partisan engine operation and just selling them to teams under different brands? I distinctly remember a lot of people on this board suggesting that this would be happening with Renault engines when Red Bull signed a deal with Infinity. Why is it so different when it's VAG involved?

[FoxHound]

With regards to the suggestion they couldn't field two brands in F1 cos of the expense: why would they have to develop two engine programs? What's stopping them setting up a non-partisan engine operation and just selling them to teams under different brands? I distinctly remember a lot of people on this board suggesting that this would be happening with Renault engines when Red Bull signed a deal with Infinity. Why is it so different when it's VAG involved?

I agree with that.

But I think the main issue that some people have with it, is that VWGmbh would be competing with itself.
My opinion is that If you are in the market for an Audi, you aren't really considering a Porsche and vice versa. There is a "gap" in perceived status between the 2.
The problem for Porsche joining F1, is that their fan base is extremely knowledgeable about Porsche products.
I'm not talking about the mummy's doing the School run in the Cayenne, I'm talking about the 911, Cayman hardcore that I have had the pleasure of meeting at many track days. And there are many!

[SeijaKessen]

Mercedes record in F1 will serve as a deterrent for all other manufacturers to join for a long time to come.

[Nando]

Ferrari´s record in F1 will serve as an incentive for all other manufacturers to join for a long time to come.

[skgoa]

The sales figures actually say very clearly that neither Bugatti nor Lamborghini need to go into F1. Their sales figure's biggest problem is that the financial meltdown wiped out so much artifical money that the hyper-rich aren't buying them as much, now. And quite frankly they are so exclusive, they wouldn't benefit from the exposure as much as e.g. Audi would. If any one brand goes into F1, I would bet it's either Audi or Porsche. Though Porsche (and their customer base) are happy to stay in sports car racing.

TBH I didn't know that there were issues between Red Bull and Renault. That could indeed be an opening for VW. They already cooperate with Red Bull in other series. With RBR, STR and Sauber, they would have a nice group of teams that aren't going to challenge each other too much or embarass the brand.


FoxHound, why do you insist on sprinkling your posts with gratuitous/incorrectly used german words?

[FoxHound]

FoxHound, why do you insist on sprinkling your posts with gratuitous/incorrectly used german words?

care to point out where?

[skgoa]

It should be "Herrn Ferdienand Piech", if you want to say that Marko is going to call him and not that Marko is going to just shout "Herr Ferdinand Piech!" And Volkswagen is an AG (Aktiengesellschaft - publicly traded company) and not a GmbH (Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung - limited liability company)
The more you know...

[FoxHound]

It should be "Herrn Ferdienand Piech", if you want to say that Marko is going to call him and not that Marko is going to just shout "Herr Ferdinand Piech!" And Volkswagen is an AG (Aktiengesellschaft - publicly traded company) and not a GmbH (Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung - limited liability company)
The more you know...

Kudos to you. I'm not German, although I can speak a little. Reference "Herr" it's directly translated as "Mr" in English.
Marko calling "Mr" Piech seemed apt to me, apologies for not accommodating the nuances of the German language.
Lesson learnt lets move on.

[Raptor22]

Its not Hr Piech either...

He is Dipl.Ing Piech

[Sombrero]

The Porsche 804 was a Formula One racing car produced in 1962, following the 718 and 787.

The flat-8 air-cooled engine powered car developed 180 hp at 9,200 rpm gave Porsche its only F1 wins as a chassis maker, at the 1962 French Grand Prix, and at the (non-WC) Solituderennen at Castle Solitude in Stuttgart, both by Dan Gurney. The cylinder dimensions were 66.0 x 54.6 mm giving a displacement of 1,494.38 cc.

[Nando]

Toto Wolf just guessed but he had a pretty interesting guess.

Basically he said, Porsche and Audi will go head to head in Le Mans. Winner will move on to Formula 1.
Not a statement or anything, he just answered a quick question on what he thought would happen.