Seasonal VW & Formula 1 Rumor

[aussiegman]

Porsche has recently said its current focus is WEC not F1. A transition of a VAG brand to to F1 would take time and money. Money VAG have, time I think is in shorter supply.

Perhaps if there is some lessons learnt in WEC that translates across to F1, then another marque like Audi may move into F1, but I seriously doubt a 2014/15 start would be possible.

As to the Bugatti, Ferrari, Lamborghini et al table mentioned before, a little context sometimes changes perspective:

Fiat owns Ferrari & Maserati & Afla Romeo- All old F1 names however Fiat would never run against Ferrari in F1

VAG owns Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, SEAT, Škoda & VW as well as Ducati and a 20% odd stake in Suzuki.

The Veyron was a "loss leading technical exercise" for VAG in that they lost money on every car they sold, but gained technical knowledge and prestige that was worth the spend.

So for VAG, it comes down to which brand has the most to gain from a foray into F1??

Porsche has a solid background and history and sportcars and prototyes like WEC is a good fit.
VW is moving into WRC and this fits with the small car product that VW produces
Bentley has done some moderately successful racing recently but it isn;t really the target demographic for the plush millionaire / footballers wives / rapper-gangsta set that drive them
Lamborghini maybe especially seeing that recent moves in carbon construction with Boeing for the Aventador and Gallardo etc
Seat & Skoda...enough said

Audi would seem to have the right demographic and model line up to possibly benefit from an F1 role. Couple that with the past history of the brand as Auto Union and it would seem to be the best fit.

[Sombrero]

I guess it was clear that Audi and Porsche will compete against each other in LMP1H in 2014-2015. Toyota has not yet confirmed the building of a LMP1 2014. May be Honda will !

The VW-Porsche may also start something in 2016 (new LMP2 regs) in the new merger Grand'Am-ALMS. So there's no room for as F1 project anytime soon. VW starts in WRC next year (Monte-Carlo Rally).

[Raptor22]

Yes, Audi and Porsche will compete against each other in WEC with different technologies. Audi will use diesel, Porsche Petrol.
Different demographics

Ausi may be the brand of choice but VW is such a massive auto manufactturer that the other brands can benefit bey association as well. Hence I believe if they becme an engine supplier only it will Porsche and AUDI. as top tier and perhaps one of the other brands for lower tier.
If they come as works teams, it will be Auto Union ( a name the group still holds under copyright.

[Nando]

The Veyron was a "loss leading technical exercise" for VAG in that they lost money on every car they sold, but gained technical knowledge and prestige that was worth the spend.

I´d like to see some financial numbers on the Bugatti company to see if this really is true.
Can´t find any though..

[ScottB]

The Veyron was a "loss leading technical exercise" for VAG in that they lost money on every car they sold, but gained technical knowledge and prestige that was worth the spend.

I´d like to see some financial numbers on the Bugatti company to see if this really is true.
Can´t find any though..

Clarkson mentioned on Top Gear that it cost them more to make it than they sold it for, can't say I've ever seen hard figures to back that up though.

[tarzoon]

Clarkson mentioned on Top Gear that it cost them more to make it than they sold it for, can't say I've ever seen hard figures to back that up though.

As much as I like Clarkson, he's hardly a 100% reliable source for information like this.

Time is the main concern here. Either they've been secretly working on a winning car for the last 2 years, or they'll buy a reasonably good team like Sauber and give them the extra cash boost performance and get them to win something or they're going to compete with catheram & co.

or they stay out of it.

just mu humble opinion

[Nando]

Yea i´ve heard it from several different new sites including the Top Gear show.
I just find it quite hard to believe.

If it was strictly a technological showcase you build one or two, that´s way cheaper then selling 100+ and lose money on every single one of them.

Not to mention the Galibier that´s arriving soon.

[bucker]

The Veyron was a "loss leading technical exercise" for VAG in that they lost money on every car they sold, but gained technical knowledge and prestige that was worth the spend.

I´d like to see some financial numbers on the Bugatti company to see if this really is true.
Can´t find any though..

1 million dollar Bugatti or 1.7 or 2.26 or how much is it now cost VW 5 million to build.

[ScottB]

Yea i´ve heard it from several different new sites including the Top Gear show.
I just find it quite hard to believe.

If it was strictly a technological showcase you build one or two, that´s way cheaper then selling 100+ and lose money on every single one of them.

Not to mention the Galibier that´s arriving soon.

It was a brand building and technical exercise, accepting a loss on the Veyron in order to get the brand going again.

The new Galibier is basically a stretched Veyron, so they will be much cheaper in terms of development already.


As for Clarkson, while I agree he isn't exactly reliable, I'd assume VW would have handed them facts about the car / objected to anything they'd come up with that was wrong etc.

[FoxHound]

I think the price of each car sold (circa 350) just about encompassed the astronomical development costs. On production alone the "standard" Veyron probably made profit when you consider only materials and labour. If it sold below a certain threshold, this project would have been financial suicide for a lesser company than VW.

The problem was a prolonged development cycle. At first the car was going to be an 18 cylinder monster, the EB 18.4. But when faced with developing the engine further, they went to using their own 4.0 litre V8 but in a conjoined design to make the W configuration as well as 8 litres.

After finalising the engine and getting prototypes out, problems inevitably crept in. The first was the tyres, to the point where specially made tyres where created for this car.... Michelin PAX run-flat tyre's. $30,000 US for a set.
After this was overcome, the car to and fro'd from boardroom and back to testing to achieve it's goals of Speed, and acceleration. Even once achieved, VW wanted it to be as "civilised"as possible.

It all meant that the Veyron ran 2 and a half years late. For a model with such small sales numbers, only somebody like VW could soak up that kind of loss. But there where rumours that as of 2011, the Veyron become profitable.... no doubt becuase of such beastly attrocities....




Yea....that was a joke.

But here is what Gordon Murray has to say about the car, which I'm not so sure is sour grapes or genuine distaste....

The most pointless exercise on the planet has got to be this four-wheel-drive thousand-horsepower Bugatti. I think it's incredibly childish this thing people have about just one element - top speed or standing kilometre or 0–60. It's about as narrow minded as you can get as a car designer to pick on one element. It's like saying we're going to beat the original Mini because we're going to make a car 10mph faster on its top speed - but it's two foot longer and 200 kilos heavier. That's not car designing - that just reeks of a company who are paranoid...

Ouch!

[Nando]

It was a brand building and technical exercise, accepting a loss on the Veyron in order to get the brand going again.

The new Galibier is basically a stretched Veyron, so they will be much cheaper in terms of development already.


As for Clarkson, while I agree he isn't exactly reliable, I'd assume VW would have handed them facts about the car / objected to anything they'd come up with that was wrong etc.

need numbers,

[FoxHound]

Good luck getting those from VW Nando

I checked, and you need full access to the 6-7 year development years accounts. Even then they are probably buried so deep you wouldn't find it.

[Nando]

i guess we will never really now

[Raptor22]

I think the price of each car sold (circa 350) just about encompassed the astronomical development costs. On production alone the "standard" Veyron probably made profit when you consider only materials and labour. If it sold below a certain threshold, this project would have been financial suicide for a lesser company than VW.

The problem was a prolonged development cycle. At first the car was going to be an 18 cylinder monster, the EB 18.4. But when faced with developing the engine further, they went to using their own 4.0 litre V8 but in a conjoined design to make the W configuration as well as 8 litres.

After finalising the engine and getting prototypes out, problems inevitably crept in. The first was the tyres, to the point where specially made tyres where created for this car.... Michelin PAX run-flat tyre's. $30,000 US for a set.
After this was overcome, the car to and fro'd from boardroom and back to testing to achieve it's goals of Speed, and acceleration. Even once achieved, VW wanted it to be as "civilised"as possible.

It all meant that the Veyron ran 2 and a half years late. For a model with such small sales numbers, only somebody like VW could soak up that kind of loss. But there where rumours that as of 2011, the Veyron become profitable.... no doubt becuase of such beastly attrocities....




Yea....that was a joke.

But here is what Gordon Murray has to say about the car, which I'm not so sure is sour grapes or genuine distaste....

The most pointless exercise on the planet has got to be this four-wheel-drive thousand-horsepower Bugatti. I think it's incredibly childish this thing people have about just one element - top speed or standing kilometre or 0–60. It's about as narrow minded as you can get as a car designer to pick on one element. It's like saying we're going to beat the original Mini because we're going to make a car 10mph faster on its top speed - but it's two foot longer and 200 kilos heavier. That's not car designing - that just reeks of a company who are paranoid...

Ouch!

The only problem is, the Veyron is rapid through the gears, it can accelerate faster than nearly anything on the planet in any gear.
To Murray it is pointless, to VW it is a technological statement that says "Our hammer will always be bigger than yours, so there."

[skgoa]

And you have to remember that he is 1) talking about a hypercar that is way better than his hypercar and 2) somewhat of a small/efficient car crusader nowadays.