Rob Wilson - driver coach?

[Ral]

No, you mentioned the trail braking thing that confused me.

Your confusion is I think about what the word "continuous" is referring to. You are taking it to refer to time, ie. turn in at 0 s and don't stop turning until the corner is dealt with.

Instead, it is meant to refer to the motion of the steering wheel. Ie. small input at 0 s, very short stop in turn-in (but not turning the wheel in the other direction), then actual cornering. As opposed to turning in, turning back out, having another go turning in, or turn in, correct some oversteer by turning out and turn in again.

If it were a graph, you'd say it has an upward tendency with a small flatline but no downward motions until it hits the peak. So strictly speaking not continuous, but it's the downward motions that he (and Jackie Stewart) wants to get rid of because they're the ones that unsettle the car and make your turn longer.

[raymondu999]

But then why does he say "continue to ramp up" the angle? He specifically mentions to continuously be increasing the angle - not hold the steering angle continuously. The increase, not the steering, is continuous.

[Sevach]

Beats me why they use "torque" twist, the word torque by itself makes it seem like Alonso was using the throttle to balance the car do the "twist", positioning the car the way he wanted it, but that's not what they talked about...

Heh - get used to it. Rob Wilson uses a lot of funny terms. Did you know that in his terminology a flatspot is something that has nothing to do with the tyres?

PS - I'm still not convinced on his "diagonal the straight at the last moment" technique - especially because I've never ever seen any F1 driver drive that way.

Yeah i got the flatspot one, it feels weird picking up an expression that is wildly used in motorsports, and use it to describe something else entirely different.
Sometimes i have to watch critical sections of the vids 2 or 3 times to get what they are on about.

And no wonder, Rob and Peter seem to understand each other perfectly .

Yep, most of the time i see drivers using the whole straight to go across, not early nor late, just a perfect diagonal from exit of one corner to braking area of the next.

Anyway, the only way i can rationalize those 2 conflicting things (back to the previous argument) is that even though he is asking you to do an agressive change of direction mid corner, he still wants you to do it as smoothly and with as much warning as possible.

Shortening the corner seems to be a final objective rather than a technique imo, you can accomplish it by giving a quick wack/flick of the steering (like Kimi or Maldonado) at slow speeds or you can "torque" twist (still hate the term btw) the car on entry like Fernando in high speed, longer radius corners.

That's the best i can come up with...

[raymondu999]

Yeah i got the flatspot one, it feels weird picking up an expression that is wildly used in motorsports, and use it to describe something else entirely different.
Sometimes i have to watch critical sections of the vids 2 or 3 times to get what they are on about.

And no wonder, Rob and Peter seem to understand each other perfectly .

Yes - the vernacular they use is very weird, and I've never heard it anywhere else.

Yep, most of the time i see drivers using the whole straight to go across, not early nor late, just a perfect diagonal from exit of one corner to braking area of the next.

IMO Pastor did that too (straight between Turn 9 and Turn 10) but Rob seems to say that Pastor was sticking to the left - which just confuses me further.

Anyway, the only way i can rationalize those 2 conflicting things (back to the previous argument) is that even though he is asking you to do an agressive change of direction mid corner, he still wants you to do it as smoothly and with as much warning as possible.

Same here. The way I've personally rationalised it is to turn the wheel as quick as possible, but at a rate which is still considered as "smooth" - sort of turning the wheel at a rate that is at the top end of the "smooth" range if that makes sense, and then continuously doing this so that you take the apex at as sharp and as tight a line as is possible.

I've got nothing against the guy - but I honestly cannot understand him with his "shorten the corner" "flatspot" "minimum speed" etc. Minimum speed is a bit easier to compartmentalise and understand, but some of his other terms might as well be spoken in Sanskrit IMO.

Really when considering his two mantras of "shorten the corner" and "flatspot" the following post by bill shoe came to mind. When I read it for the first time it just clicked to me as very short corners and all flatspots - Rob would be in heaven

Interesting discussion. I learned a lot about road course vehicle dynamics and the fastest line from watching high-end electric RC road course cars. They have all wheel drive, and a single-ratio electric motor with flat torque that is strong enough to spin the tires if desired. As a first approximation they have equal acceleration in any direction-- accel, decel, cornering, combinations, etc. The max accel is strong, I'm guessing 1.5 or 2.0 G. This combination doesn't exist in many real cars and certainly does not exist for a real-size car on a proportional real-size track. So a high-end RC road racer on a proportional RC road course is a unique high-performance situation.

The quickest way around in theory and practice is to always take the inside constant radius around corners and join those together with straight tangents. There is a transient phase beween longitudinal and lateral acceleration, but the RC cars' natural frequencies in roll and pitch are very quick so those transients are barely noticeable. The line I described is the shortest possible line around the track.

[Sevach]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUNFcA7kWIA[/youtube]
Trying to find out exactly what is "torque twist", i found this video to see what Alonso does in the final 2 corners of Hockenheim.

What i can see from this video is that Alonso opens up the entry extra wide compared to Lewis and most others (i know the comparison was to JB but i couldn't find that) on the final 2 corners, he has different line through because of his different entry positioning, my eyes can't spot any twist after the turn in.

[raymondu999]

I'm not sure if it's worth looking for to be honest. To me it's sometimes clear that Peter Windsor is able to see things we can't. For example I saw Alonso and Vettel in Monza taking the straight between Ascari and Parabolica diagonal. He saw Alonso and Vettel sticking to the right hand side of the road and apparently only diagonalling the straight in the last 200 meters. Every race weekend he is able to spot something no other living human is, and apparently to his eyes it's blatantly obvious that only [insert racewinner's name] and [insert p2 finisher's name] are doing.

However the "put wheel straight between changes of direction" may have some credence to it. As I posted in this thread a while back:

For the straights and long corners argument, sometimes F1 is so fast that it helps to slow things down. Check out Vettel in ROC 2011:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9h2Rz-BWBvM[/youtube]

You see that in the "chicanes" with changes of direction from left to right, Vettel (even if only for a split second) puts the wheel dead straight

PS: I forgot to mention it when I posted it, but the onboard bit I'm talking about starts at 1:00

[Sevach]

IMO Pastor did that too (straight between Turn 9 and Turn 10) but Rob seems to say that Pastor was sticking to the left - which just confuses me further.

I'm this close to saying that one is completely bogus, but i'm not gonna say that... yet.

The only place you see this is Canada qualy, but that's because the finish line is before the slight kink so it makes sense to drive straight to it, it would probably be worst if you were putting laps in sequence, no drivers take this line at the race.

Same here. The way I've personally rationalised it is to turn the wheel as quick as possible, but at a rate which is still considered as "smooth" - sort of turning the wheel at a rate that is at the top end of the "smooth" range if that makes sense, and then continuously doing this so that you take the apex at as sharp and as tight a line as is possible.

It's difficult, specially when you see Maldonado turn 1 at Barcelona where he wacks the steering wheel with no remorse and holds it there for quite a while.
Then you see Kimi which is smooth, soft initially(i guess you can interpret this as warning of what's coming), quick wack (to be fair Maldonado does the "Kimi" in a variety of corners) and power on, they are all doing different stuff... yet everything is being lumped together as "shortening the corner".

The common point between all of this is imo, the car should be in a straight(er) line as early as possible.
If anything, it's do what you will on the entry, but as you go through the apex the front should be pointed to the exit.
The warn the car, be as smooth as possible, is just there to confuse us honestly.
This is just common sense, you shouldn't un-balance the car just because... you should try to keep it as steady as possible, even if are driving it agressively.
What he teaches is a very agressive rotation of the car instead of a constant rate of turn, which is what guys like you and me know as smooth style, so it becomes confusing.

Interesting discussion. I learned a lot about road course vehicle dynamics and the fastest line from watching high-end electric RC road course cars. They have all wheel drive, and a single-ratio electric motor with flat torque that is strong enough to spin the tires if desired. As a first approximation they have equal acceleration in any direction-- accel, decel, cornering, combinations, etc. The max accel is strong, I'm guessing 1.5 or 2.0 G. This combination doesn't exist in many real cars and certainly does not exist for a real-size car on a proportional real-size track. So a high-end RC road racer on a proportional RC road course is a unique high-performance situation.

The quickest way around in theory and practice is to always take the inside constant radius around corners and join those together with straight tangents. There is a transient phase beween longitudinal and lateral acceleration, but the RC cars' natural frequencies in roll and pitch are very quick so those transients are barely noticeable. The line I described is the shortest possible line around the track.

So constant radius right.

Regarding, the video, well... i did find Alonso doing something different, just not something that would in any way shape or form be described as the thing they were talking about

Edit: I don't doubt his techniques have some credence and use, but i'm a big believer on "there is no one right way" when it comes to motorsport.
Something to keep in mind, Maldonado benefited from shortening the corners because he couldn't match Barrichello's apex speed...

[raymondu999]

It's difficult, specially when you see Maldonado turn 1 at Barcelona where he wacks the steering wheel with no remorse and holds it there for quite a while.
Then you see Kimi which is smooth, soft initially(i guess you can interpret this as warning of what's coming), quick wack (to be fair Maldonado does the "Kimi" in a variety of corners) and power on, they are all doing different stuff... yet everything is being lumped together as "shortening the corner".

Agreed. Rob is always waxing lyrical about two of his students - who perhaps are his top students - in Maldonado and Kimi. I think it's fair to say that Maldonado wasn't doing much warning into Turn 1

The common point between all of this is imo, the car should be in a straight(er) line as early as possible.
If anything, it's do what you will on the entry, but as you go through the apex the front should be pointed to the exit.
The warn the car, be as smooth as possible, is just there to confuse us honestly.
This is just common sense, you shouldn't un-balance the car just because... you should try to keep it as steady as possible, even if are driving it agressively.
What he teaches is a very agressive rotation of the car instead of a constant rate of turn, which is what guys like you and me know as smooth style, so it becomes confusing.

Yes, the slow, sharp corner line where basically, because you lump all the "tightness" and tyre scrub into the car at the same time, the added traction and braking of having a straight car will outweigh the slower, tighter racing line you're taking.

[timbo]

Agreed. Rob is always waxing lyrical about two of his students - who perhaps are his top students - in Maldonado and Kimi. I think it's fair to say that Maldonado wasn't doing much warning into Turn 1

Well, in fact he does, he gives about 15 degrees turn, before flicking it.
But what I find somewhat confusing is that I've seen all drivers do some of the "tricks" Wilson advertises, so I how much of it is actually driving skill or how driver feels in the car, I dunno. IMO different setups, tyres, track grip levels etc define what driver does. With ideal setup and track surface we'd seen everybody taking pretty much same lines I guess...

Yeah, and track surface plays a big role in what drivers do. I remember Petrov saying that you don't want to take apex in the first corner in Hungaroring because of the bump.

[Sevach]

That's a little bit of warning for a whooooole lot of wacking , no one in their right mind would describe that as smooth honestly.
Maybe he got scolded for it lol.

Yes, the slow, sharp corner line where basically, because you lump all the "tightness" and tyre scrub into the car at the same time, the added traction and braking of having a straight car will outweigh the slower, tighter racing line you're taking.

That seems to be his mantra, yes.

And also as Timbo says we see various drivers doing this at some time or another, which brings into question how much has he thought Maldonado/Kimi?

[raymondu999]

Agreed. Rob is always waxing lyrical about two of his students - who perhaps are his top students - in Maldonado and Kimi. I think it's fair to say that Maldonado wasn't doing much warning into Turn 1

Well, in fact he does, he gives about 15 degrees turn, before flicking it.

Yes, but you have to do that - unless you're taking a late apex, the geometry wouldn't hook up.

[timbo]

Yes, but you have to do that - unless you're taking a late apex, the geometry wouldn't hook up.

Soooo.... what is really his point, then?


Anyway, you can experoence prepera the car thing in your normal car -- there is notable difference at how car reacts to different rates of brake input.
In the Peter Wright's book there's interesting thing about the natural frequency of the car. F1 cars being much stiffere have much higher natural frequency and therefore can tolerate much faster inputs.

[raymondu999]

Yes, but you have to do that - unless you're taking a late apex, the geometry wouldn't hook up.

Soooo.... what is really his point, then?

As in, what I meant was - if you were turning in from the outside of the track limits on entry, then you tried a short corner line, you'd have to do that half-turn first, unless you're doing a late apex.

Anyway, you can experoence prepera the car thing in your normal car -- there is notable difference at how car reacts to different rates of brake input.
In the Peter Wright's book there's interesting thing about the natural frequency of the car. F1 cars being much stiffere have much higher natural frequency and therefore can tolerate much faster inputs.

That is indeed interesting. I guess really the trick is to be doing inputs as fast as you can while still falling under the "smooth" bracket.

[Sevach]

That is indeed interesting. I guess really the trick is to be doing inputs as fast as you can while still falling under the "smooth" bracket.

Every car has limits, the F1's are just much higher (and since the 90's with the aero evolution there is great variation of how much the car can "take" between high and slow speeds), you have to push the limits but still have enough finesse not to unsettle it.

[raymondu999]

Actually, take a look at 14:56 here:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae6GdU544S8[/youtube]

Rob says that Alonso gets the traction, then moves over. Is it perhaps that Rob Wilson and Peter Windsor are misunderstanding each other? Rob perhaps means to move over as soon as you're on full throttle, while Peter Windsor takes it as only moving across in the last 200m?