McLaren dump Mercedes?

[wunderkind]

I'd love to see Red Bulls powered by Mercedes engines!

[astracrazy]

I'd love to see Red Bulls powered by Mercedes engines!

not having ago, but whats that gotta do with the topic title

[FoxHound]

Red Bull would just love to return the favour to McLaren after McLaren vetoed Red Bull's use of Mercedes V8 a few years ago.
If McLaren do separate from Mercedes, Renault will not be an option. Neither would Cosworth be viable to McLaren as their performance is not up to Mercedes, or McLaren's own expectation.

Ferrari could be a short term alternative, and while this may appear far fetched, there has been a bit of a love in between the 2 teams, almost in unison against Red Bull.

But they could also be trying to drag Honda back into F1. McLaren have relied heavily on manufacturer support for many years even stretching back to the 80s. Now Mercedes arent paying the bills, taking their star driver and McLaren having to pay to run Merc engines, independance isn't all that great at present.

astracrazy, I think this post covers the relevance

[dren]

Powered by HONDA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can only dream, since that is what Hondas are powered by.

Maybe Mclaren wants to give it a go themselves as an engine manufacturer?

[Dragonfly]

2009 Honda engine never hit the track. I remember Brawn speaking about an integrated common lubrication system for the engine and the gearbox which was a major technical issue when adapting the car to the Mercedes unit. And they had their own version of KERS which was not given to Brawn on IP grounds. Since then I think not any significant changes have been done under the engine freeze rules except in engine management to suit the EBD (now banned). Therefore I think it's possible to supply engines for 2013 if they intend to switch in with the V6 from 2014.

[ced381]

Maybe Mclaren wants to give it a go themselves as an engine manufacturer?

McLaren don't wanna pay a single Euro for engines... Why on earth would they wanna pay to develop and build engines?!

[dren]

Maybe Mclaren wants to give it a go themselves as an engine manufacturer?

McLaren don't wanna pay a single Euro for engines... Why on earth would they wanna pay to develop and build engines?!

Because Mclaren is trying to be Ferrari in the outside world.

[astracrazy]

Maybe Mclaren wants to give it a go themselves as an engine manufacturer?

McLaren don't wanna pay a single Euro for engines... Why on earth would they wanna pay to develop and build engines?!

I don't understand what sort of deal they are expecting from Honda (if this is true). Why would honda start up there engine development for free?

[gibells]

I think in this debate it's necessary to look at what's happening with Honda (HRC) and Dorna in MotoGP. Dorna have tried to take away their heavily developed ECU and replace it with a spec ECU for 2013. Honda has repeatedly threatened to pull out completely. But then in a move of epic proportions, Dorna took control of its World Superbikes to hedge Honda back into the fray. Whilst there is a probable positive outcome for both parties concerned (ECU's limited but not spec'ed), I still think they have been burned, and can see their first attentions shifting somewhere else. No one likes to loose face in an argument so publicly, and especially not the Japanese.

Also, remember they have some very relevant current experience in Indycar. Even though it may not be on the sharpest edge of the cutting wedge of technology, it still gives them a good starting point.

As for next year, I can still see stars.

[ESPImperium]

I think in this debate it's necessary to look at what's happening with Honda (HRC) and Dorna in MotoGP. Dorna have tried to take away their heavily developed ECU and replace it with a spec ECU for 2013. Honda has repeatedly threatened to pull out completely. But then in a move of epic proportions, Dorna took control of its World Superbikes to hedge Honda back into the fray. Whilst there is a probable positive outcome for both parties concerned (ECU's limited but not spec'ed), I still think they have been burned, and can see their first attentions shifting somewhere else. No one likes to loose face in an argument so publicly, and especially not the Japanese.

Also, remember they have some very relevant current experience in Indycar. Even though it may not be on the sharpest edge of the cutting wedge of technology, it still gives them a good starting point.

As for next year, I can still see stars.

And one of the companies that Dorna had consulted over a MotoGP Spec ECU was Mclaren Electronic Systems, witch leads me to think there will be Honda power in the back of the F1 cars that come from the MTC.

All the connections are just too neat, and just too perfect in the puzzle.

I see Mclaren having MBHPPT engines next year, but with 2014 in vogue as well, Honda id reckon will be in the back of the MP4/29 in 2014.

However other teams will also benefit as the PURE engine program is seeming back afloat, but this is unconfirmed. And the 2014 regs are looking to keep engine supply to a maximum of 3 teams, and Red Bull will probably want Renault to keep Williams and Caterham as they are like Sauber and Toro Rosso to Ferrari, little to no competition. Also id expect Honda to supply McLaren and one other team probably Marussia, id like to think Mercedes will stay on supplying Force India. As for Team Einstone (Lotus) i think PURE will be there and PURE will also supply HRT would be my guess.

Whitch splits engine supply 5 ways to maths;

Ferrari: Scuderia Ferrari, Sauber, Toro Rosso
Mercedes: Mercedes AMG, Force India
Renault: Red Bull, Caterham, Williams
Honda: McLaren, Marussia
PURE: Lotus, HRT

The reason i have those selections is that all apart from Williams will have a works gearbox from a works partnership.

[FoxHound]

Sorry ESP

I cannot agree with that. Cosworth have already stated that they can supply Turbo's, and that there is still a market for them in 2014.
Secondly, Honda have no known turbo engine programme to speak of. Because McLaren want it, doesn't mean Honda are already developing one. Besides, all teams will be looking at their 2014 projects by April 2013 at the latest, and this requires engine specs, dimensions, gearbox marriage, fuel consumption, HERS integration and power characteristics. Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault have been benching finished turbo's for some time now, and it's not even on the Honda Drawing board so far as I can tell.

This means anyone hoping to pick up Honda power in 2014 will have to make some pretty big stabs in the dark with regard to one of the bigger set of rule changes the sport has seen.

Finally regards PURE, do you have a source to show that they are back up and running and ready to supply in 2014?

[tok-tokkie]

What about these two?
BMW. They have burned their fingers & decided to stay away from F1?
VW. Is it too late for them to provide an engine? Is there something else they want to do which would preclude F1?

[banibhusan]

I seriously doubt Lotus would happily partner with PURE. The PURE engines would be no better than the Renault turbos. Why would a team with such a strong technical expertise and good quality drivers want to have a sub standard engine like that of the PURE?

[munudeges]

There is no way, despite what anyone says and McLaren's protestations, that they are going to continue with Mercedes engines for much longer. They are always going to be at a serious disadvantage in that relationship. They would have known exactly what they were going to do many years ago as soon as Mercedes pulled out of the team.

[ScottB]

I think in this debate it's necessary to look at what's happening with Honda (HRC) and Dorna in MotoGP. Dorna have tried to take away their heavily developed ECU and replace it with a spec ECU for 2013. Honda has repeatedly threatened to pull out completely. But then in a move of epic proportions, Dorna took control of its World Superbikes to hedge Honda back into the fray. Whilst there is a probable positive outcome for both parties concerned (ECU's limited but not spec'ed), I still think they have been burned, and can see their first attentions shifting somewhere else. No one likes to loose face in an argument so publicly, and especially not the Japanese.

Also, remember they have some very relevant current experience in Indycar. Even though it may not be on the sharpest edge of the cutting wedge of technology, it still gives them a good starting point.

As for next year, I can still see stars.

And one of the companies that Dorna had consulted over a MotoGP Spec ECU was Mclaren Electronic Systems, witch leads me to think there will be Honda power in the back of the F1 cars that come from the MTC.

All the connections are just too neat, and just too perfect in the puzzle.

I see Mclaren having MBHPPT engines next year, but with 2014 in vogue as well, Honda id reckon will be in the back of the MP4/29 in 2014.

However other teams will also benefit as the PURE engine program is seeming back afloat, but this is unconfirmed. And the 2014 regs are looking to keep engine supply to a maximum of 3 teams, and Red Bull will probably want Renault to keep Williams and Caterham as they are like Sauber and Toro Rosso to Ferrari, little to no competition. Also id expect Honda to supply McLaren and one other team probably Marussia, id like to think Mercedes will stay on supplying Force India. As for Team Einstone (Lotus) i think PURE will be there and PURE will also supply HRT would be my guess.

Whitch splits engine supply 5 ways to maths;

Ferrari: Scuderia Ferrari, Sauber, Toro Rosso
Mercedes: Mercedes AMG, Force India
Renault: Red Bull, Caterham, Williams
Honda: McLaren, Marussia
PURE: Lotus, HRT

The reason i have those selections is that all apart from Williams will have a works gearbox from a works partnership.

The one problem there is that Force India, like Marussia, use Mclaren technology. Would they switch to using Merc technology and design help?

I do remember some suggestion that Renault wanted to divest itself of its former team, but now that they are relatively successful, have their own brand name and pay the bills perhaps not. Isn't Renault's strategy to supply as many teams as possible? Is there even space / need for PURE or Cosworth if Honda come in?

Ferrari: Scuderia Ferrari, Sauber, Toro Rosso
Mercedes: Mercedes AMG, Force India, HRT
Renault: Red Bull, Caterham, Williams, Lotus
Honda: McLaren, Marussia

Not sure where HRT would end up, but if we consider 3 teams to be the ideal number to supply, 4 manufacturers is enough unless any don't mind taking the hit to only supply a top team, say Honda just want to be with Mclaren for example.