Scuderia Ferrari 2012

[f1316]

you think Alonso is trying to downplay his car to make himself look better. Apologies if this is not what you think.

I do think that. Maybe not necessarily with the explicit intention of making himself look better, but yeah. For example IIRC he was calling his car the 3rd quickest yesterday, and said that he was only able to get to the podium because the McLarens forgot to cover him, and because he was "pushing 120%" the whole race.

Alonso is relentless and doesn't generally make mistakes, but I don't believe for a second that he is able to transcend physics and push the car 120% - he is a damn good driver, one of if not the best, but he is still human and constrained within the bounds of physics

I personally think Massa is still a pretty decent baseline for a car that's working well, so we can see how well Alonso generally does.

I personally don't - so we have a fundamental disagreement there that neither one of us can prove nor disprove, which turns this whole discussion into a dead end really!

Sounds fair! No point in arguing about it

120% 110% is the kind of rubbish sportsmen always say though, so of course he wasn't transcending the physical capabilities of the car. But I do think his best feature, a bit like Schumacher, is to be able to push 100% for so many many laps. He's not an unbelievable qualifier, and that was evidenced when Trulli was his teammate, but he was always better at pushing the limit consistently throughout the race, which is why he is where he is compared to Jarno.

I think the car needs general work though, that's my point. It's still not at the level of RB even in the race, imo. Gary Anderson, for example, has spoken about how it actually is a flawed design in its coke-bottle area, something they didn't completely clean up when they fixed the exhaust. They also don't seem to be doing as much with the front wing as other teams . Which also goes to show that they must be doing a lot else really well to be so competitive.

But I think there's more to come on front and rear wings. I doubt there'll be much of a change to the exhaust, as was rumoured, but the diffuser was a interesting upgrade and perhaps that will be further understood in future races.

If we see Vettel and Alonso side-by-side on the grid, I think we could be looking at a classic head-to-head of the Hakkinnen/Schumacher sort.

[raymondu999]

If we see Vettel and Alonso side-by-side on the grid, I think we could be looking at a classic head-to-head of the Hakkinnen/Schumacher sort.

Agreed.And if the rumors are to be believed, we might even see them as teammates! I think it's going to be tighter than anyone imagines, in terms of who outdoes who. But... back on topic!

[Kiril Varbanov]

For sure F2012 has no fundamental issues - in the high-tech F1 world there's no place among first three if your car is really badly constructed. The difference is visible with the back of the grid - the teams that had no capacity to build their cars exactly they want.

Next, if F2012 had flawed design from the very beginning, the car wouldn't have been able to maintain the high-downforce pace of Vettel in the last couple of races.
Quick facts from India: In the final 18 laps with Hard Pirelli compound Alonso had the edge over Vettel in 14 laps. 0.7 seconds is the average gap from those laps, whereas Vettel was 0.4 on average with the Soft.

Alonso's average speed is highest in this race, as well as purple sectors 1 and 2. Speed traps are also in favor of the Spaniard and F2012: 8 km/h ahead of VET and WEB.

So, no car that has core flaws could maintain such speed. To add to this statement is the relatively small and modest updates introduced by Ferrari, namely front wing end plates and small tweak of the diffuser's central channel. If, with such small changes you are able to maintain good race pace, then issue is elsewhere.

The car itself, after the latest large changes in Valencia (correct me if I'm wrong), hasn't deviated much. In its core it has only the front-pull rod which is different and the position of the radiators, which to me is an alert to look at.

More to note is the front wing simple and unchanged shapes for a long time, and the form of the acer ducts - I know I sound like Gary Anderson now, but I think he has a point, well, to some extent. Since none of us has, and I doubt that it ever will, looked at the numbers produced by various benchmarks (CFD or WT), we can only guess. What's certain though is that the original "Aspiration flow" concept did not work as expected, despite that, Ferrari were able to make up almost second and a half deficit. So, black clouds and silver linings, as Dream Theater say. It's not all down to tools - I suspect there's a certain level of insufficient creativity - while most of the teams have tried various weapons - mainly around DRS, F2012 remained simple, counting merely on Alonso. I hope that we will be able to understand the truth someday.

[ecapox]

The F2012 has evolved, albeit with no large visible changes, from a mid pack car to a front runner. The only thing the RB8 has over the F2012 is the DDRS that can be used everywhere during qualifying. During the race, the F2012 is best, but without the benefit of shedding that extra bit of drag in qualifying, the F2012 finds itself not being able to make it to that top podium step.

[diffuser]

If we see Vettel and Alonso side-by-side on the grid, I think we could be looking at a classic head-to-head of the Hakkinnen/Schumacher sort.

Agreed.And if the rumors are to be believed, we might even see them as teammates! I think it's going to be tighter than anyone imagines, in terms of who outdoes who. But... back on topic!

Yep side by Side would be great...I don't like the idea of pooling the best drivers on 1 team. For F1 to be more entertaining we need to spread the wealth. Who wants the return of the Ferrari/Schumacher era? The Seasons were, often, over very early.

[diffuser]

For sure F2012 has no fundamental issues - in the high-tech F1 world there's no place among first three if your car is really badly constructed. The difference is visible with the back of the grid - the teams that had no capacity to build their cars exactly they want.

Next, if F2012 had flawed design from the very beginning, the car wouldn't have been able to maintain the high-downforce pace of Vettel in the last couple of races.
Quick facts from India: In the final 18 laps with Hard Pirelli compound Alonso had the edge over Vettel in 14 laps. 0.7 seconds is the average gap from those laps, whereas Vettel was 0.4 on average with the Soft.

Alonso's average speed is highest in this race, as well as purple sectors 1 and 2. Speed traps are also in favor of the Spaniard and F2012: 8 km/h ahead of VET and WEB.

So, no car that has core flaws could maintain such speed. To add to this statement is the relatively small and modest updates introduced by Ferrari, namely front wing end plates and small tweak of the diffuser's central channel. If, with such small changes you are able to maintain good race pace, then issue is elsewhere.

The car itself, after the latest large changes in Valencia (correct me if I'm wrong), hasn't deviated much. In its core it has only the front-pull rod which is different and the position of the radiators, which to me is an alert to look at.

More to note is the front wing simple and unchanged shapes for a long time, and the form of the acer ducts - I know I sound like Gary Anderson now, but I think he has a point, well, to some extent. Since none of us has, and I doubt that it ever will, looked at the numbers produced by various benchmarks (CFD or WT), we can only guess. What's certain though is that the original "Aspiration flow" concept did not work as expected, despite that, Ferrari were able to make up almost second and a half deficit. So, black clouds and silver linings, as Dream Theater say. It's not all down to tools - I suspect there's a certain level of insufficient creativity - while most of the teams have tried various weapons - mainly around DRS, F2012 remained simple, counting merely on Alonso. I hope that we will be able to understand the truth someday.

Yep, for all we know, the front wing is so simple cause of the pullrod front suspention. Maybe the other teams are trying to correct the pushrod air flow? What we do know is that they're getting plenty of downforce. Not enough to challenge RB YET but still plenty. I also suspect that the upgrades coming up will be in a different direction than RB.

[diffuser]

The F2012 has evolved, albeit with no large visible changes, from a mid pack car to a front runner. The only thing the RB8 has over the F2012 is the DDRS that can be used everywhere during qualifying. During the race, the F2012 is best, but without the benefit of shedding that extra bit of drag in qualifying, the F2012 finds itself not being able to make it to that top podium step.

Yep and don't forget Ferrari doesn't have alternator problems that need to be resolved before TEXAS nor do they have KERS problems every 2nd race. Maybe RB has the flawed design ?

[dren]

Anything can happen. Remember what happened to Alonso two years ago? Vettel still has to put in a few more perfect races.

[Crabbia]

The F2012 has evolved, albeit with no large visible changes, from a mid pack car to a front runner. The only thing the RB8 has over the F2012 is the DDRS that can be used everywhere during qualifying. During the race, the F2012 is best, but without the benefit of shedding that extra bit of drag in qualifying, the F2012 finds itself not being able to make it to that top podium step.

Yep and don't forget Ferrari doesn't have alternator problems that need to be resolved before TEXAS nor do they have KERS problems every 2nd race. Maybe RB has the flawed design ?

Agree completely with ecapox in the above, lack of a strong DRS is really hurting them in qualifying and causing them to have to move through the grid to fight at the top. it will be interesting to see how they react.

following on what diffuser said, the F2012 has been very strong in term of reliability, well the strongest car in 2012. not a single mechanical failure in a race or qualifier the whole season, no gearbox penalties, no mechanical fault of any kind. i think it is a big contributor to this car having been underestimated.

Alonso was thanking his team during the post race press conference, referring in particular to the straight line speed he had.

While this might be due to in part to set up i think we are starting to see the reliability of the F2012's enigine come to the fore. By this I mean they can turn the wick up on the engines and get that straight line speed advantage on the straights.


with reference to this:
http://www.vivaf1.com/reliability.php

you can see Alonso had a much fresher engine than Webber had. One of the reasons, i think, why he steamed past him on the DRS straight.

Also maybe a reason why mass had fuel issues. Maybe they turned his engine up to higher performance but paid the price in fuel consumption.

[Spankyham]

For sure F2012 has no fundamental issues - in the high-tech F1 world there's no place among first three if your car is really badly constructed. The difference is visible with the back of the grid - the teams that had no capacity to build their cars exactly they want.

Next, if F2012 had flawed design from the very beginning, the car wouldn't have been able to maintain the high-downforce pace of Vettel in the last couple of races.
Quick facts from India: In the final 18 laps with Hard Pirelli compound Alonso had the edge over Vettel in 14 laps. 0.7 seconds is the average gap from those laps, whereas Vettel was 0.4 on average with the Soft.

Alonso's average speed is highest in this race, as well as purple sectors 1 and 2. Speed traps are also in favor of the Spaniard and F2012: 8 km/h ahead of VET and WEB.

So, no car that has core flaws could maintain such speed. To add to this statement is the relatively small and modest updates introduced by Ferrari, namely front wing end plates and small tweak of the diffuser's central channel. If, with such small changes you are able to maintain good race pace, then issue is elsewhere.
......

Really good summary and

The DDRS is giving the RB8 an edge in Qualifying, but during the race there is very little difference. There are two additional factors that make Nando's F2012 race pace very impressive:-
1) Vettel was on the fuel limit - he needed Webber to push him into PF to ensure he had a sample left
2) Vettel used a new donk at India whilst Nando still has a new one up his sleeve (as does Felipe).

So we can see that Seb had pushed absolutely to the limit, with a newer engine (slightly more power slightly better fuel consumption) - now revisit Nando's lap times especially those in the last third of the race.

I'm very optimistic about the last 3 races - even if we don't bring any upgrades.

[Hail22]

For sure F2012 has no fundamental issues - in the high-tech F1 world there's no place among first three if your car is really badly constructed. The difference is visible with the back of the grid - the teams that had no capacity to build their cars exactly they want.

Next, if F2012 had flawed design from the very beginning, the car wouldn't have been able to maintain the high-downforce pace of Vettel in the last couple of races.
Quick facts from India: In the final 18 laps with Hard Pirelli compound Alonso had the edge over Vettel in 14 laps. 0.7 seconds is the average gap from those laps, whereas Vettel was 0.4 on average with the Soft.

Alonso's average speed is highest in this race, as well as purple sectors 1 and 2. Speed traps are also in favor of the Spaniard and F2012: 8 km/h ahead of VET and WEB.

So, no car that has core flaws could maintain such speed. To add to this statement is the relatively small and modest updates introduced by Ferrari, namely front wing end plates and small tweak of the diffuser's central channel. If, with such small changes you are able to maintain good race pace, then issue is elsewhere.
......

Really good summary and

The DDRS is giving the RB8 an edge in Qualifying, but during the race there is very little difference. There are two additional factors that make Nando's F2012 race pace very impressive:-
1) Vettel was on the fuel limit - he needed Webber to push him into PF to ensure he had a sample left
2) Vettel used a new donk at India whilst Nando still has a new one up his sleeve (as does Felipe).

So we can see that Seb had pushed absolutely to the limit, with a newer engine (slightly more power slightly better fuel consumption) - now revisit Nando's lap times especially those in the last third of the race.

I'm very optimistic about the last 3 races - even if we don't bring any upgrades.

Two fantastic and informative posts, thank you both for sharing your views

[raymondu999]

Hasn't that always been touted as a strength of the Renault though? Longevity I mean. I read a while back that the Renault block loses less of its output with mileage (though lacking ultimate grunt initially by a bit)

[Glyn]

So if the Ferrari had DDRS they would completely dominate?

[munudeges]

Quick facts from India: In the final 18 laps with Hard Pirelli compound Alonso had the edge over Vettel in 14 laps. 0.7 seconds is the average gap from those laps, whereas Vettel was 0.4 on average with the Soft.

Alonso's average speed is highest in this race, as well as purple sectors 1 and 2. Speed traps are also in favor of the Spaniard and F2012: 8 km/h ahead of VET and WEB.

It's all straw-clutching and hair splitting I'm afraid. Vettel was ten seconds down the road at the end and had long since went into cruise mode. Trying to dissect where you think you were ahead when you were so soundly beaten is a common psychological flaw.

Red Bull's current resurgence is about an awful lot more than just DRS usage.

[munudeges]

Pretty interesting article from Gary Anderson at the BBC as to where he believes Ferrari have gone wrong:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20091800

Put simply, he feels that the wind tunnel problem Ferrari says they have had for the past two years isn't something that can be fixed. It simply has to be accepted that running a car in the wind tunnel is fundamentally different to running a car on track. You have to have the people who understand what the fundamental differences are in order to pick out meaningful data that will translate from the wind tunnel to the track. Anything else requires track testing, which is obviously a precious commodity these days.

He also hints in a bit more detail as to what those wind tunnel and track differences are - for one thing the car is stationary, the surroundings of the wind tunnel can often interfere and especially what happens when a car is turning through a corner. I can remember an interview with Willem Toet (probably posted on this thread) when he poked a little bit of fun at Ferrari's wind tunnel talking about the same issues and how it's basically impossible to simulate exactly what happens when a car is rotating through a corner with lock on the front wheels in a wind tunnel.

As I recall Toet said "Understand the limitations of your tools" and Gary Anderson is pretty much saying exactly the same thing.

EDIT:

Anderson also goes on to talk about Ferrari having a visionary like Adrian Newey. It doesn't mean that someone comes in and performs some voodoo magic, but having a clear vision from the top down and someone who is clearly responsible for the direction the car will go in. Personally, I think that person should be Nikolas Tombazis but either he doesn't want it or internal politics are getting in the way. I believe I and one or two others talked about this many months ago, before the season even started in fact.