Fernando Alonso - Just how good is he...

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JimClarkFan
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Fernando Alonso - Just how good is he...

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I used to hate Alonso, and I'm ashamed to say that I truly mean that.

However, I have had a complete turn around in the last three years, especially this year.

My question is how good is he, where on the all time list does he come?

I honestly think he might be one of the greatest of all time, and by that I mean Top 3.

I realize that is somewhat premature given that he has not retired, even still though, I can not think of anybody that has drove as well over any season as Alonso this year.

In my view it doesn't matter it Vettel wins another title, this year belongs to Alonso.

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AnthonyG
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Re: Fernando Alonso - Just how good is he...

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Thank you really doesn't really describe enough what I feel. - Vettel

mnmracer
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Re: Fernando Alonso - Just how good is he...

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Depends, how good do you think his Ferrari is?
Do you believe it every time he puts his team down even when they've won a race? Do you believe that Ferrari is midfield material when Massa seems to have a stronger second half of the season? Do you believe to finish first, first you need to finish, and a fast car that doesn't finish is useless?

Fernando's been great this season, but for some reason he's so set in making us all believe that only Hamilton is on his level, Vettel can only win in the fastest car and he is fighting for the championship in a Minardi, while any level-headed Formula One-follower would realize the Ferrari is not as bad as he makes out to be, and has been faster than the Red Bull for several races this year.

I think the end of what might be one of his best years (or certainly, first half years), is not the time to criticize him and explain why I think he's not top 3 in history material.

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Joie de vivre
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Re: Fernando Alonso - Just how good is he...

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For me personaly, Alonso and Hamilton are currently the best drivers out there.

I also used to hate Alonso (Alonso vs. Schumi times), but I must say this guy is one of the best.

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yener
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Re: Fernando Alonso - Just how good is he...

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Joie de vivre wrote:For me personaly, Alonso and Hamilton are currently the best drivers out there.

I also used to hate Alonso (Alonso vs. Schumi times), but I must say this guy is one of the best.
Another one here bro. I just couldnt stand Alonso, i really hated him. But this guy is fast.

Alonso already showed in the Renault that he is capable to win races with a less good car then the toprunners.

I think he is the fastest man on track right now.
"Life is about passions - Thank you for sharing mine" MSC

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Hail22
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Re: Fernando Alonso - Just how good is he...

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Indeed Alonso would have to be one of the best drivers who can perform extraordinary things in an under performing car.

I hope no one trashes this topic...
If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari.

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jtc127
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Re: Fernando Alonso - Just how good is he...

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I used to hate alonso after 2007, still don't particularly like him, except when the choice is between him and vettel.

He is very fast, IMHO, not quite as fast as hamilton. I will say he is by far the best and most complete racer on the grid. There are very few racers on the grid who are able to score a lot of points when they don't have a great car. Guys like button are a total non-factor when the car isn't the fastest and everything isn't perfect. Alonso can take a bucket of bolts and consistently grind out good finishes all year.

HVS5b
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Re: Fernando Alonso - Just how good is he...

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Those very thoughts have been stewing in my head slowly for the last few weeks. Never hated the man, just hugely indifferent to him in so much as I'd never considered supporting him in any fashion.

I do now. Fabulous skills over the full spectrum displayed consistantly, been an absolute pleasure to watch. Deserves so much more than he will most likely receive come Brazil...

A future legend of the sport still writing his story.
Last edited by HVS5b on 30 Oct 2012, 19:59, edited 1 time in total.

JimClarkFan
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Re: Fernando Alonso - Just how good is he...

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mnmracer wrote:Depends, how good do you think his Ferrari is?
Do you believe it every time he puts his team down even when they've won a race? Do you believe that Ferrari is midfield material when Massa seems to have a stronger second half of the season? Do you believe to finish first, first you need to finish, and a fast car that doesn't finish is useless?

Fernando's been great this season, but for some reason he's so set in making us all believe that only Hamilton is on his level, Vettel can only win in the fastest car and he is fighting for the championship in a Minardi, while any level-headed Formula One-follower would realize the Ferrari is not as bad as he makes out to be, and has been faster than the Red Bull for several races this year.

I think the end of what might be one of his best years (or certainly, first half years), is not the time to criticize him and explain why I think he's not top 3 in history material.
Good points.

The point Alonso is making is that Vettel cannot win in a car that is not the best. I agree with Alonso on this, I don't think Vettel has the same skills as either Hamilton or Alonso to win in a sub par car and do it consistently.

Both Alonso's titles came in cars which were not the best at that time.

I think it would be fair to say that over the course of this season the Ferrari has been on average the 3rd best car - I think it has been the second best car at times, and at the start of the season a mid field car.


HVS5b wrote:Those very thoughts have been stewing in my head slowly for the last few weeks. Never hated the man, just hugely indifferent to him in so much as I'd never considered supporting him in any fashion.

I do now. Fabulous skills on over the full spectrum displayed consistantly, been an absolute pleasure to watch. Deserves so much more than he will most likely receive come Brazil...

A future legend of the sport still writing his story.
Pretty much this.

I have been watching him over these past few races and I have been thinking that I don't think I have ever seen anybody consistently produce performances that I would consider faultless.

I've went from thinking Alonso was over rated to genuinely thinking he might be the best ever.

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raymondu999
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Re: Fernando Alonso - Just how good is he...

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I think that brings out an important debate - what is the "best" car though. Cars IMO should be given points for speed, but have points taken off for unreliability. The Ferrari has been the most bulletproof car, and if memory serves, the Renault was the most reliable car in 2005 as well, made very starkly clear in comparison to Raikkonen's car back then.

I think if you take the season from the start of the European leg - it's actually arguable the 2012 Ferrari is possibly the 2nd best car of 2012 - the race pace is very good and equal with the best now, just that they're getting caught out in qualifying and so having to fight through the pack through the starts and through the early laps, by which time its competitors will have created a gap down the road. It's also the most reliable among the 3 consistently racewinning cars.

It seems to be stronger on the harder tyres, generally, which further hurts its qualifying. Point in case - the Ferrari being marginally quicker than the Red Bull on the prime stint in India, while being slower in the option stint. The same thing happened for Silverstone too.

I think that car is in no way a qualifying monster - but we have to give it some points over its rivals for reliability, wet weather pace as well as race pace.

This is in no way a slight to Alonso - but I think the car is rather underrated.

Alonso is, in my view, the jack of all trades of F1 - good in all areas, but excels in none. He's the student that becomes valedictorian by virtue of being a straight A student. In individual subjects, other students have A+'s, but as an overall package Alonso would have the highest GPA.

Note that my use of the word excels is relative though! :lol:

For example, I still view Hamilton as a better overtaker, Vettel as being the better qualifier/cold-tyre-lapper, Button as the better on-track brain, but crucially they're 3 different people - the qualities aren't all in the same guy.
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Websta
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Re: Fernando Alonso - Just how good is he...

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I would rate Hamilton as more difficult to overtake than Alonso as well because of how good Hamilton is on the brakes and out of corners.

Ray's analogy of Alonso being the Valedictorian is very apt, but I think it is worth mentioning that he is Valedictorian in one of the most competitive grids in the history of F1 and that he would place very high in each of those criteria in an all-time list (of the best overtakers, etc.)

He is also frighteningly consistent in his ability to put in excellent lap times - this is an extremely useful skill that allows him to put his car "where it doesn't belong", a phrase that has been thrown around a lot recently. Bhallg2k is correct in saying that a car cannot be physically driven faster than it can go, but that only really applies to qualifying. In a race, Alonso has often "lucked into" victories this season (Malaysia, Valencia), but he has really made his own luck by being consistently quick, allowing him to take full advantage of any mistakes by his competitors or to take full advantage of other opportunities that present themselves. Just think of all the times Alonso has been there to clean up after a leader of a race has retired. If a driver is always fast, whenever such an opportunity does arise, he will be able to capitalise. This virtue also allows him to consistently score good points, and I would say he is one of the best at making strategies work.

He is also excellent under pressure, but that could just be from his experience. Either way, it is a very handy quality.

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raymondu999
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Re: Fernando Alonso - Just how good is he...

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Websta wrote:Bhallg2k is correct in saying that a car cannot be physically driven faster than it can go, but that only really applies to qualifying. In a race, Alonso has often "lucked into" victories this season (Malaysia, Valencia), but he has really made his own luck by being consistently quick, allowing him to take full advantage of any mistakes by his competitors or to take full advantage of other opportunities that present themselves.
But the whole point is, he still physically cannot drive quicker than the car's grip/power lets him - he has to wait for a mistake from the other side to be able to capitalise. In that sense the result is not "in his hands" if you get what I'm saying.
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Websta
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Re: Fernando Alonso - Just how good is he...

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Yes, that's what I was saying (or trying to). When an opportunity presents itself, he is able to capitalise IMO more than other drivers (on average). I think he has now done it many times in his career that it is pretty significant. I wasn't saying that he drives the car faster than it can go though (that would be stupid). In a race, making strategies work and extracting maximum pace out of your inferior car can put you ahead of better cars (that haven't been driven faster, though) as well, which is what I think a lot of people mean when he says he can "put the car where it doesn't belong." Unfortunately I don't have time to look for examples right now. Disclaimer: I am not saying the Ferrari is a bad car or anything, just describing what I mean

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Gerhardsa
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Re: Fernando Alonso - Just how good is he...

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Websta wrote:Yes, that's what I was saying (or trying to). When an opportunity presents itself, he is able to capitalise IMO more than other drivers (on average). I think he has now done it many times in his career that it is pretty significant. I wasn't saying that he drives the car faster than it can go though (that would be stupid). In a race, making strategies work and extracting maximum pace out of your inferior car can put you ahead of better cars (that haven't been driven faster, though) as well, which is what I think a lot of people mean when he says he can "put the car where it doesn't belong." Unfortunately I don't have time to look for examples right now. Disclaimer: I am not saying the Ferrari is a bad car or anything, just describing what I mean
Im not a Alonso fan that much either, but I do think that if the F2012 was as quick on paper as the RB(qualy and race) all year, Alonso would have probably done a Vettle of last year. Well, maybe not by that type of margin, but I do think the Championship whould have been over by now...
I honestly dont think anyone on the grid can match him now, but expect Vettel te be able to give him a go.
My top 3 drivers are

Alonso
Vettel
Hamilton...in that order

And the gap between Alonso and Vettel is bigger, than that of Vettel-Hamilton

A few chaps also mentioned he lucked into wins/good results... the Difference, as have been mentioned, is that Alonso is the type of racing driver, that gives himself every chance to "luck" into a win, because he will always be there and there about.
I have no doubt that if his car is as fast in qualy as the RB, nobody would be able to beat him at this stage of his career.

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banibhusan
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Re: Fernando Alonso - Just how good is he...

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To describe him in one line: "He is the most relentless competitor in F1 currently".

And I agree with what Ray said, he is Jack of all trades but master of none. And I believe when people say that he can put a car where it doesn't belong, they basically mean that he can extract the maximum out of a car lap after lap no matter what are the conditions, without setting a foot wrong. For this reason only he has been able to capitalize on mistakes of others. He is always there to pounce on you if you make a mistake. Hence you can never discount him.