Fernando Alonso - Just how good is he...

[NathanOlder]

Lewis seems to think Alonso is better than Seb

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motors ... ettel.html

I have to say, when watcing qualifying more than a few times this season I have noticed if you watch Seb on the live timing it looks great. Purple or Green sectors on his final run time and time again. BUT if you watch the TV (normally after as I watch the live timing more than look at the tv) I often think, am I really looking at his pole lap or is this an earlier lap? he does miss an apex here and there.

[JimClarkFan]

Lewis seems to think Alonso is better than Seb

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motors ... ettel.html

I agree with Lewis, I think Alonso is better than Vettel. I think Lewis is better than Vettel too for that matter.

But I wouldn't put any stock on what Lewis says, he and Alonso have been publicly jerking each other off since 2010/2011 all in the name of putting Vettel down.


Edit - I take that back actually. What Lewis says is actually very interesting, I'll have to watch a few more of Vettel's pole laps.

[Schurcedes]

How good is Alonso? Very good. Top 3 on the grid? Possible. Top 3 of all time is laughable. I would already place Vettel above Alonso, and Vettel still has his best ahead of him. Alonso might get into the top five if he keeps going strong into his mid-thirties but I think he'll get swamped by younger talent very soon.

The psychological tendency to be wowed or amazed by a driver that started the season in a bad car but ends it with one of the best cars is nothing new with F1 -I remember being similarly 'wowed' by and begrudgingly praising (all the while applauding what I then saw as my own open-minded objectivity) several drivers in the past (though my reasoning was not driven by the same weakness, it was just as stupid), from the likes of Alesi and Villeneuve to Hamilton in recent years. Have come to realize most of this gushing self-applauding generosity is irrelevant in the long run; emotional stupidity taking precedence over reality.

In this case, Vettel has displayed (in my opinion) more often and more comprehensively the sort of brilliance I routinely came to expect from the likes of Schumacher, Senna, Prost (et al) -utter record-breaking domination when handed a great car, brilliance in the wet, exceptional performances in sub-par machinery (such as the win and podiums in a Toro Rosso in 2008), perhaps even the token stuck-in-xth-gear drive a la Barcelona 1994, controlled aggression (let's just say he probably wouldn't flinch if he had to put the squeeze on a faster car; instances from as early as 2008 come to mind), the ability to pull out those superlative pole laps from nowhere -he's the whole package. Alonso does not have the raw talent, but does have experience and the ability to stay committed over season long campaigns. I don't think even an experienced Alonso is as good as Vettel is today, and that's without taking into account the stigma of the unnecessary baggage Alonso carries around with him.

As for the car argument, that even Felipe Massa, a shadow of his former, pre-accident self, is doing well these days shows just how much Ferrari have improved. If anything, I'd say of all the drivers on the grid perhaps the McLaren drivers have fallen short of expectation. Alonso has had rock-solid reliability this season unlike Vettel and Hamilton, both of whom lost points through no fault of their own, without which Vettel would perhaps have been well-clear of the second placed man.

As a fan of neither, I would certainly say Sebastian Vettel strikes me as being the better of the two in every department when it comes to driving, and someone that could go on to become a perma-great. (i.e. your 'top three of all time) Hamilton had the edge over Vettel, when it came to blistering one lap pace and overtaking ability, but considering just how much SV has improved since his first title I think he is second to none on the grid.

[jdlive]

The Hamilton Alonso --- talk towards Vettel screams "I know I'm never going to win anything ever again so I'll just resort to insults"

[NathanOlder]

All we can do is wait for Vettel to have a half decent Team mate.

[Mesteño]

good is Alonso? Very good. Top 3 on the grid? Possible. Top 3 of all time is laughable. I would already place Vettel above Alonso, and Vettel still has his best ahead of him.

And I stopped my reading. Some opinions just cant be understood...

[raymondu999]

I don't think the words of a competitor in direct competition in a sport like this should ever be taken completely honestly I'm afraid. Too many politics and mind games are at play - and a common enemy dies wonders to unite former foes.

[mnmracer]

All we can do is wait for Vettel to have a half decent Team mate.

All we can do is stop acting like Webber is a retarded walabi

[Schurcedes]

good is Alonso? Very good. Top 3 on the grid? Possible. Top 3 of all time is laughable. I would already place Vettel above Alonso, and Vettel still has his best ahead of him.

And I stopped my reading. Some opinions just cant be understood...

Considering your username I'm assuming you're an Alonso fan (correct me if I'm wrong), I'm surprised you even began reading.

You may not understand Andrew Benson's opinion either, then.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/18096591

Number 01 - Ayrton Senna
Number 02 - Juan Manuel Fangio
Number 03 - Jim Clark
Number 04 - Michael Schumacher
Number 05 - Alain Prost
Number 06 - Sir Stirling Moss
Number 07 - Jackie Stewart
Number 08 - Sebastian Vettel
Number 09 - Niki Lauda
Number 10 - Fernando Alonso
Number 11 - Alberto Ascari
Number 12 - Gilles Villeneuve
Number 13 - Nigel Mansell
Number 14 - Mika Hakkinen
Number 15 - Lewis Hamilton

As a Schumacher supporter I do understand why opinions that differ from mine might consider him only 4th best, for example.

[Mesteño]

good is Alonso? Very good. Top 3 on the grid? Possible. Top 3 of all time is laughable. I would already place Vettel above Alonso, and Vettel still has his best ahead of him.

And I stopped my reading. Some opinions just cant be understood...

Considering your username I'm assuming you're an Alonso fan (correct me if I'm wrong), I'm surprised you even began reading.

You may not understand Andrew Benson's opinion either, then.

Ok friend that was a winning point. Anyway, I have my own opinion about Alonso as a driver, and I don't need to quote Niki Lauda, Alain Prost, Jackie Stewart, Michael Schumacher, Lewis Hamilton (f1 ignorants) among others to support it.

[LionKing]

All we can do is wait for Vettel to have a half decent Team mate.

All we can do is stop acting like Webber is a retarded walabi

I think Vettel's current teammate is definitely better than both Button and Massa.

Button is deficient in qualifying and too much up and downs ( this year he managed 7 points in 6 season in a McLaren mid season). and Hamilton only managed to gather 7 more points than this guy during their McLaren years....

[Stradivarius]

Simply because that is what happened. Alonso gained 32 points towards Vettel because of Vettels equipment failure in Valencia. When considering the value of a reliable car and compare it to an unreliable car, you have to look at all the consequences of a reliability issue. If Vettel's car hadn't failed in Valencia, his margin to Alonso would have been 32 points larger now.

You are loading the dice in your favour. You cannot give and take where you see fit for Vettel, but not for Alonso.
Vettel Has also gained points due to Alonso's misfortune, you scarcely make mention of it in your analysis.

I am not loading the dice at all, I am simply trying to establish the value of a reliable car and compare it to the disadvantage of having an unreliable car. I am not talking about misfortune in general. You may very well argue that Alonso has had more misfortune than Vettel and that his results are therefore not telling the whole truth, but that is irrelevant as long as I am only considering reliability.

You mention reliability. But where do you mention anything about the cars superior speed to the Ferrari? You are assuming that both cars are exactly equal, and further extending the assumption that it is only due to Vettel's misfortune that Alonso is still in the hunt.

Not at all! I have neither said or implied that. You have simply misunderstood the message.

This is a contorted verdict, simply because the initial parameters you meted out where unfit.
Where the Red Bull and Ferrari equal, I would agree to an extent, but they aren't equal.

As for the Alonso incident, I don't want to apportion blame to any driver. The stewards report classified it a "racing incident", it's what happens sometimes with 5 cars abreast going into the first corner of a GP.
You may differ, and run your calculations accordingly, but the official line holds more water for me.

I am not disputing the official line, as it is not relevant. This is a race incident and not a reliability issue, and hence irrelevant for my reliability analysis.

My claim is that it is not obvious that Red Bull's extra speed is worth more than Ferrari's extra reliability. Of course, the value of reliability is quite easy to measure in points, as we usually have a good idea of how many points a driver looses when his car breaks down. The value of speed is much harder to determine, as we can never know for sure whether the speed difference is due to the car or due to the driver..

It may not be obvious to you, but the statistics do not lie. Over the course of the season thus far, Vettel has an average grid slot of 4.24, Alonso 6, Webber 6.4 and Massa 10.1....

Now, it is you that assume that Massa and Webber are exactly equal, or your argument doesn't make any sense. As I believe that I demonstrated to you earlier under a different topic, looking at the last 4 races, looking at the results of Massa and Webber doesn't get you anywhere. I am sure you will give Alonso most of the credit for so far having scored more than twice as many points as Massa. But when you compare Webber and Massa, you seem to forget how big difference the driver can make. Alonso has 227 points to Massa's 89 points. That is how big impact the driver can have. Now, if Alonso can outscore Massa with 138 points simply by being a better driver, how can you exclude the possibility that Webber can outscore Massa with 78 points simply by being a better driver? That is what you are doing: You are excluding this possibility, or your argument won't make any sense! And you have not provided any justification for this, as far as I can see. Massa has been heavily criticezed all year for not having performed. His poor results are blamed on his driving, not on his car.

The 33 points Vettel lost has been more than made up by the fact Alonso has suffered 2 dnf's due to collision(race incident in 1 and a race ban for grosjean the other) AND the fact that Vettel was unlucky to be riding in a Newey designed car that pushed one component too far in 2 races.
I'm sorry, but this is clear as day for me.

If you include Alonsos collisions, you complicate the picture quite substantially, as we are no longer considering reliability alone. Even if you won't blame Alonso for making contact with Kimi in Japan, you must face the fact that his driving involved a significant risk, squeezing Kimi towards the edge of the track. If one driver collides more than another, it may very well be down to his own driving and judgement of risk. There is no way you can consider Alonsos collision in Japan without also considering Vettels collision in Malaysia. And that wasn't even considered a race incident. Karthikeyan was penalized for that incident. So if misfortune is mixed into this, I would include Vettels puncture in Malaysia and Alonsos collision at Spa. But not his collision at Suzuka. Alonso could easily have avoided that collision himself!

Now Alonso is generally known for good judgement of risk. But Kimi Raikkonen also has a reputation for the same thing. I believe Kimi Raikkonen has finished every single lap so far this season, so when he is involved in a race incident with Alonso that results in a DNF, Kimi isn't the first driver I would accuse of driving with high risk. I found a video where you see what happened from Massa's onboard camera. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZoESZe0mCs

Kimi is actually out in the dirt when they make contact, so this is definitely Alonsos fault. The only reason he wasn't handed a penalty is probably that Kimi didn't loose anything from what happened why Alonso himself payed the price. This is not an incident I would talk about if I was trying to convince others that Alonso is the best driver.

[FoxHound]

I am not loading the dice at all, I am simply trying to establish the value of a reliable car and compare it to the disadvantage of having an unreliable car. I am not talking about misfortune in general. You may very well argue that Alonso has had more misfortune than Vettel and that his results are therefore not telling the whole truth, but that is irrelevant as long as I am only considering reliability.

And so long as you continue to only take into consideration 1 factor, then you are in fact loading the dice into your favour.
If have given you irrefutable evidence over the period of the season to more than suggest the Red Bull is faster and near perfectly equal, reliability wise.
You are skirting around the issue of Vettel's 1 extra failure by ignoring Alonso's extra misfortune. You cannot exclude these results from your analysis.
You mentioned Vettel's failure in Malaysia, it wasn't a "failure" if a driver pierces your tyre is it? According to the parameters you meted out to Alonso, it isn't. So why Vettel? Rhetorical question....

Kimi is actually out in the dirt when they make contact, so this is definitely Alonsos fault. The only reason he wasn't handed a penalty is probably that Kimi didn't loose anything from what happened why Alonso himself payed the price. This is not an incident I would talk about if I was trying to convince others that Alonso is the best driver.

So the FIA have got it wrong?
Well I differ from your view and I see this as a gap that was always going to disappear.
This is the first corner of suzuka.
Long, fast right hander, correct?
What happens to cars attempting to squeeze on the outside(especially 4/5 cars abreast)? It will run out of road my friend.
When Kimi made contact with Alonso, he had corrected for running off the road AND THEN cut across the back of Alonso's tyre.

You can very clearly see this in the sequence beginning 39seconds-40seconds-41seconds-42seconds.

Kimi, has pulled out of shrinking gaps before, probably more on the off season than GP weekends but he should know the gap is always going to disappear, and Alonso should be aware too.
There is a problem though,....Where are you looking when you head into a 120mph right hander at the start of the race?

You are reaching verdicts that have officially been disproven, these verdicts which then have far reaching implications in your formula.
The reality is Red Bull is faster, have been faster for longer and are about as reliable as the Ferrari as makes not much difference. The facts bear this out.
Make of that what you wish.

[Richard]

I spy with my little eye a "fanboy" accusation. That takes us to rule 34.5(ii)(a) sub-section 3, which in turn opens up a lateral move via the diagonal breach to Godwins law!

I must say that was an impressive end game strategy wasn't it? Oh, you can't reply.