Can Red Bull make changes to make Vettel's car bulletproof

[mnmracer]

It seems Vettel's biggest threat to his championship chances in Brazil is not Alonso, but the reliability of the RB8. Even assuming Alonso can take the win in Brazil, 4th place finish is enough for Vettel to win the championship, so there is some speed they could give up in exchange for reliability.

Is there anything Red Bull can realistically do to make the RB8 bulletproof for the last race, even if it costs them some speed?

[raymondu999]

When has the RB8 been unreliable this year, other than the US Friday water leaks? Other than that it's been unreliable engines and alternators.

[mnmracer]

When has the RB8 been unreliable this year, other than the US Friday water leaks? Other than that it's been unreliable engines and alternators.

Red Bull/Renault.
If a lot of engine problems are considered to be caused by the design, is there something they could realistically change?

[ringo]

Maybe punch an air hole too cool the alternator?
Other than that i don't think vettel's car has been problematic during the race.
If it were Webber going into the last race with the championship lead, then i'd be worried.
Webber seems to have all the aprentice mechanics, or the mechanics with the short attention span.
The mechanics were filtered by ability and attention span and placed in vettel's garage.
Poor Webber has the electrical engineer who sometimes mixes up the red and black wires on the KERS, or puts the cells in series when they should be in parallel.
I'd say keeping things how they are, with maybe more precautionary alternator cooling is as much as they can do.

[Cam]

It would also make sense to get Mark to test any new parts or configurations in the practice and the race, especially now as 2013 gets closer. It's entirely possible that Vettel was using an older spec, while Mark was testing a newer part, which failed, or was testing a new configuration for all those components for next year. Mark has never been good at being a 'rear gunner' and I doubt the team would rely on that, so put him to use in other ways - that would make the most sense.

Germany's Auto Motor und Sport says Renault recently reverted to a 2011-specification alternator that helped Sebastian Vettel to reliably win the last Suzuka and Singapore grands prix.

"We are using a model now that has proved itself over two months," Red Bull's Dr Helmut Marko is quoted by the German broadcaster RTL.

[RB7ate9]

Mark has never been good at being a 'rear gunner' and I doubt the team would rely on that, so put him to use in other ways - that would make the most sense.

I would contest this. I kindly present all of 2011 to show. In Korea, he was absolutely rear-gunning for Vettel (easily maintaining a 2s gap to Alonso) and in India, his KERS bit it, preventing him from fighting Alonso. Otherwise, you have grid-spot penalties, collisions, mechanical failures. Only a foolish team would not want a driver like Webber to do JUST well enough to be behind Vettel. Had KERS not failed at COTA, I feel Webber would've kept Alonso off the podium.

Edit: That being said, it does make sense to put riskier items on Mark's car to test, but you wouldn't necessarily want your second driver out of the front row if you could do something about it.

[ChipAyten]

F1 has more parity than it has ever had. Evidenced by the fact that this year's Monaco GP winner is considered the weaker driver and doesn't get any preferential treatment in his team.

[WhiteBlue]

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 56894.html
There was a long article in AMuS about the different specifications. The 2011 spec alternator has a wider bearing diameter and needs slightly wider body panels which are detrimental to the aerodynamics. It is conceivable IMO that Webber used a 2012 spec and Vettel a 2011 spec in a test at evaluating a potential use of the 2012 spec in Brazil by Vettel. Red Bull has just secured the WCC regardless of Webbers DNF. They knew they would not need points from Webber. So everything is invested to keep testing for the highest performance on Vettel's car.

[Cam]

Mark has never been good at being a 'rear gunner' and I doubt the team would rely on that, so put him to use in other ways - that would make the most sense.

I would contest this. I kindly present all of 2011 to show. In Korea, he was absolutely rear-gunning for Vettel (easily maintaining a 2s gap to Alonso) and in India, his KERS bit it, preventing him from fighting Alonso. Otherwise, you have grid-spot penalties, collisions, mechanical failures. Only a foolish team would not want a driver like Webber to do JUST well enough to be behind Vettel. Had KERS not failed at COTA, I feel Webber would've kept Alonso off the podium.

Edit: That being said, it does make sense to put riskier items on Mark's car to test, but you wouldn't necessarily want your second driver out of the front row if you could do something about it.

LOL 2011 Mark couldn't catch Vettel and had a gimme at Brazil. Mark, both on the record and in his efforts on track, refuses to give any help or advantage to Vettel (whether the behind the scenes reality is different, only they know), so that would not really suggest a 'rear gunner' - not like our mate Massa who's only too happy playing 'follow the leader' - that would be the clear distinction. I reckon I can dig up enough video over the last couple of years to show Webber loosing places too easily and failing to gain places by not being aggressive enough, at critical moments failing to protect Vettel. Which is why he always gets the crap parts to test. Mark isn't unlucky, he's a clear number 2 who hates it and publicly (and probably in his own head too) refuses to accept it.

Vettels car in Brazil will be the best car they can put on track. They will leave nothing to chance. If I see Webber backing up field behind him in Brazil, I'll post retraction, but why would he, from the looks of it Vettel doesn't need the help, nor does Hamilton, nor Alonso.

[RB7ate9]

I won't contest the obvious fact that Webber does not like being the number 2 driver. Nor will I contest that Brazil '12 was a "consolation win" for Webber from the team. However, Webber did have moments of clarity where he slapped himself on pole but, as usual, bogged the start.

What I present, though, are the timings from Korea, and the simple situation where Webber (who placed himself frequently on the podium) kept those positions from the likes of Alonso and Hamilton and Button - the main antagonists to Vettel's imperious march in '11.

As for the video, I'd like to see it (Whether it'd be full races or perhaps analyses, I'm all for more footage where available). Please PM it, though. As "rear-gunner" drivers can be it's own thread (that will no doubt devolve into a Hamilton/Button "who should be no. 2" argument ).

In regards to Vettel's car. He's bound to stick with 2011-spec alternator (if it was used), and not test any new non-aero parts. If Red Bull were really crazy, they may have Webber's car be a smidge uncomfortable in the seat so that if Vettel's car clunks out, Webber will swap with him (just like Le Mans)

[raymondu999]

Nor will I contest that Brazil '12 was a "consolation win" for Webber from the team.

What do you know that we don't? Alonso can't like that

[RB7ate9]

Nor will I contest that Brazil '12 was a "consolation win" for Webber from the team.

What do you know that we don't? Alonso can't like that

Well played.

[xxChrisxx]

It seems Vettel's biggest threat to his championship chances in Brazil is not Alonso, but the reliability of the RB8. Even assuming Alonso can take the win in Brazil, 4th place finish is enough for Vettel to win the championship, so there is some speed they could give up in exchange for reliability.

Is there anything Red Bull can realistically do to make the RB8 bulletproof for the last race, even if it costs them some speed?

I can see the logic behind that. But really you've got to consider this being non results oriented. The Red Bull has, in general, been reliable and quick, so why change anything and introduce unforseen risk?

If there is a problem then it's bad luck, people will say "you should have been conservative".
If they do change something and lose too much speed then he comes in 5th after Alonso wins, people will say "what idiots, why change a winning formula". Or if he gets caught in traffic and get taken out.

The approach they currently have with the machinery they have is obviously a good one, statistically it's a good idea to just stick with that. If something breaks, then it's just rotten luck.

[raymondu999]

When you have 5 tons of force bashing the car vertically, and the car hitting kerbs left and right, etc etc etc, everything's a sort of tradeoff and gamble.

If they really are concerned, perhaps they could slap on a draggier cooling package, sacrificing some drag for better alternator cooling.

Will they do it? I don't think so. But they probably would take extra care with the alternators. Perhaps going as far as to swapping it every possible opportunity? (Between fp etc)

When Vettel stopped on track in Abu Dhabi quali, speculation was that Vettel had alternator problems, and someone said he could (if he so wished) swap for a working alternator free of charge.

[raymondu999]

Speaking of alternator cooling. Renault, IIRC, use an air-cooled alternator. The last water leak issues I remember for Red Bull was Mark Webber at Monza 2010 FP3 - so I don't think it's a recurring issue.

With RBR being Renault works team now (at least de facto, if not for real) could Red Bull have been testing a water-cooled alternator, with the view of maybe sacrificing some weight and packaging in exchange for some alternator longevity?

Just a pattern that popped in my mind. I have absolutely nothing to back the theory up, other than what is in this post.