Who will Win Autosport Driver Of The Year 2012??

[FoxHound]

Do you realize that the single Vettel alternator DNF would account for more than that difference? It is 32 point swing between Alonso and Vettel...

What we can also deduce is reliability issues especially from the leading the race is very expensive. One such would require a few great results to recover the swing.

So in effect what you are saying is Vettel transformed himself in the second half of the season into twice the driver he was in relation to the first half?
I don't buy that.
For the majority of the season, Ferrari have had the 3rd fastest car behind Red Bull and McLaren. I'm not going to sit here and say the Ferrari was a dog, it was good enough for Podiums alot of the time.
But Alonso rarely had the fastest car. His results where based on opportunism, some luck and vast amounts of concentration determination and skill.

We even had rival drivers praising Alonso for keeping his challenge going. Hamilton of all people, speaking highly of his nemesis. I don't have the personal dislike of Alonso I used to, and that is primarily because of the last 3 years performances at Ferrari.

I have said my piece, I wont change your mind and you wont change mine. Let's just agree it was a fantastic season and perhaps so because of Alonso's tenacity?

[Cylinder]

Do you realize that the single Vettel alternator DNF would account for more than that difference? It is 32 point swing between Alonso and Vettel...

What we can also deduce is reliability issues especially from the leading the race is very expensive. One such would require a few great results to recover the swing.

So in effect what you are saying is Vettel transformed himself in the second half of the season into twice the driver he was in relation to the first half?

I agree and it's an absolutely ridiculous argument to make that he suddenly transformed into life.

What happened this season is crystal clear, before the updates to the red bull and before they solved their exhaust area downforces issues, he was involved in another life and death battle with Webber just like in 2010.

As soon as the updates to the car came and there was more stability in the rear end, plus DDRS, then the red bull became a better car, and webber and vettel were able to lock out the front rows again.

No matter how much Vettel fans dont want to hear this.

He hasn't answered the doubts about how good he is and after 3 world titles, he is still not universally recognized as the best in the sport, to be honest, many wouldnt even have him in the top 2... and every poll conducted on PF1, Autosport or even if you want to go and ask the drivers this year, you will hear the same thing.

Congrats for winning another title, but thats just how it is.

[mnmracer]

So all this big talk, yet no one can substantiate where Alonso would have gotten all those points Vettel lost by not being the best driver.
=D> =D> =D>

That's the sad thing really.
Everyone on their high horse, but they can't substantiate a single thing.

I think it would be impossible to substantiate anything like that.

I can easily claim that Alonso would have beaten his team mate and won the Monaco grand prix, or that he wouldn't have passed Button off the track in Hockenheim etc. but i wouldn't have anything to back it up with.

If Vettel has been as bad in comparisson to Alonso as it is made out to be here, where none of Vettel's accolades are accepted, it would be very easy to substantiate that.

So, tell me, what did Alonso do this year, that Vettel could not have, substantiated?
So if you believe that Vettel could not have taken a Ferrari pole in Germany on fresher tires, and then lead from the front in a car with 15kph speed advantage, than that is one answer.

[Richard]

I've updated the title to something a bit more neutral. Constructive open minded assessment of all drivers is OK. Vettel fanboys against Alonso fanbys is not OK.

Please avoid anally retentive dissection and death by statistics.

My view is that stuff happens and someone ends up with the most points, end of story. Some drivers demonstrate passion and flair - those are subjective qualities, there is no right or wrong. All drivers are more talented than any of us can ever dream of so use that as your starting point.

[Cylinder]

I've updated the title to something a bit more neutral. Constructive open minded assessment of all drivers is OK. Vettel fanboys against Alonso fanbys is not OK.

Please avoid anally retentive dissection and death by statistics.

My view is that stuff happens and someone ends up with the most points, end of story. Some drivers demonstrate passion and flair - those are subjective qualities, there is no right or wrong. All drivers are more talented than any of us can ever dream of so use that as your starting point.

Why would you change the title to Who would win autosport driver of the year when Alonso already finished top of the their driver standings for this year. That would imply he gets it as im sure thats how they give the award out.

[mnmracer]

What happened this season is crystal clear, before the updates to the red bull and before they solved their exhaust area downforces issues, he was involved in another life and death battle with Webber just like in 2010.

Is that all you can do? Tell lies?
Where was this life and death battle in Australia, Malaysia, Bahrain, Spain, Canada, Europe, Germany or Hungary?

You don't want to hear that Vettel's season has not been as bad as you want it to be made out.
You have to resort to factual inaccuracies to make your point. You need a double standard to make Alonso look good.
Because no, we can't judge Lewis for losing three races to Jenson. We can't judge Fernando for being bettered in three races by Felipe. But the fact Mark got the better of Sebastian in three races is apparently reason to burn him to the ground.

[Gerhard Berger]

So all this big talk, yet no one can substantiate where Alonso would have gotten all those points Vettel lost by not being the best driver.
=D> =D> =D>

That's the sad thing really.
Everyone on their high horse, but they can't substantiate a single thing.

I think it would be impossible to substantiate anything like that.

I can easily claim that Alonso would have beaten his team mate and won the Monaco grand prix, or that he wouldn't have passed Button off the track in Hockenheim etc. but i wouldn't have anything to back it up with.

If Vettel has been as bad in comparisson to Alonso as it is made out to be here, where none of Vettel's accolades are accepted, it would be very easy to substantiate that.

So, tell me, what did Alonso do this year, that Vettel could not have, substantiated?
So if you believe that Vettel could not have taken a Ferrari pole in Germany on fresher tires, and then lead from the front in a car with 15kph speed advantage, than that is one answer.

Like i said, it's a pointless exercise since nothing can be proven.

[Cylinder]

What happened this season is crystal clear, before the updates to the red bull and before they solved their exhaust area downforces issues, he was involved in another life and death battle with Webber just like in 2010.

Is that all you can do? Tell lies?
Where was this life and death battle in Australia, Malaysia, Bahrain, Spain, Canada, Europe, Germany or Hungary?

Life and death battle, webber was ahead of him after the 1st 9/10 races or something like that, neck and neck mate, just like 2010. He was getting beat by his teammate.

[Nando]

Qualifying says it all,

HAM/BUT - 17-3
VET/WEB - 11-9
ALO/MAS - 17-3

[LionKing]

Do you realize that the single Vettel alternator DNF would account for more than that difference? It is 32 point swing between Alonso and Vettel...

What we can also deduce is reliability issues especially from the leading the race is very expensive. One such would require a few great results to recover the swing.

So in effect what you are saying is Vettel transformed himself in the second half of the season into twice the driver he was in relation to the first half?
I don't buy that.

What are you talking about?? How does the statement I have written mean anything remotely like Vettel transforming itself in the second half ?

You said that after the end of race #n; Alonso was 13 points in front of Webber, 29 points in front of Vettel. And I said swing from Vettel's DNF at Valencia wrt Alonso is 32, which would account more than the delta alone...

[mnmracer]

What happened this season is crystal clear, before the updates to the red bull and before they solved their exhaust area downforces issues, he was involved in another life and death battle with Webber just like in 2010.

Is that all you can do? Tell lies?
Where was this life and death battle in Australia, Malaysia, Bahrain, Spain, Canada, Europe, Germany or Hungary?

Life and death battle, webber was ahead of him after the 1st 9/10 races or something like that, neck and neck mate, just like 2010. He was getting beat by his teammate.

I don't know if you're trolling or really really have no basic understanding of Formula One. You must also believe that Damon Hill outperformed Ayrton Senna in the first two races of 1994...

[mnmracer]

Like i said, it's a pointless exercise since nothing can be proven.

So then you agree this 'absolute truth' preached here that Alonso did so much better than Vettel, is not really that true? It's all talk, but nothing to show for it.

[GrizzleBoy]

What happened this season is crystal clear, before the updates to the red bull and before they solved their exhaust area downforces issues, he was involved in another life and death battle with Webber just like in 2010.

Is that all you can do? Tell lies?
Where was this life and death battle in Australia, Malaysia, Bahrain, Spain, Canada, Europe, Germany or Hungary?

You don't want to hear that Vettel's season has not been as bad as you want it to be made out.
You have to resort to factual inaccuracies to make your point. You need a double standard to make Alonso look good.
Because no, we can't judge Lewis for losing three races to Jenson. We can't judge Fernando for being bettered in three races by Felipe. But the fact Mark got the better of Sebastian in three races is apparently reason to burn him to the ground.

Vettel has not been that good this year tbh.

Last year he was "flawless", a "genius" as Martin Brundle would say..

This year, he's had questionable collision/race incident galore compared to the other big names and Webber kept up with him quite well compared to last year (until he signed his contract).

In almost every aspect, you could say that there has been a driver who has done better than him.

Qualifying? Maybe in 2011 with the beastly RB7, but definitely not 2012, starting outside of the top ten in Monaco while Mark was on pole.

Race craft? Certainly not. He still shows issues overtaking. Doing so out of the track boundaries on numerous occasions, causing racing incidents on more than one occasion. Sometimes multiple times in the same race.

Winning when starting away from the front row? Nope.

He did what he needed to do with the equipment he was given, but where his overall racemanship (no it isn't a word) is concerned, its not really been fantastic. There are definitely other drivers who have been more impressive with their set of wheels.

Raikkonnen for instance, has been much more impressive imo, with the limiting factor being the overall just above average, but not good enough Lotus car.

[DaveKillens]

There are a few canditates for this award, but to me it narrows down to Alonso and Vettel. And now this gets very difficult because they got to this point doing completely different things.

For Alonso, it was determination, grit, controlled aggression, luck, and superior decision-making that made this a very special season, a season that in my mind elevates him from the category of "just good drivers" in that intangible of "great".

For Vettel, he did exactly what was required of him, and delivered with incredible consistency.

You can debate this with a long list of "yea, but.." but once the checkered flag flies, it's results that matter. Points on the board that measure the season. Sure, Vettel is on a super team, one that delivers a wonderful car, and quality tactical decisions and pit stops. But in the end, the "yabuts" go out the window, as stated, you are measured by your results.

So even with those wonderful advantages and assists, he had to deliver, he had to race all season and keep from getting into problems. Combine that with the simple fact that a three time champion does not come along that often and that is it a great accomplishment, This has to be taken into careful consideration.

At Interlagos Vettel became the youngest three time champion, to add to his long list of "firsts" and other accomplishments. To deny him "Driver of the Year" is to ignore his third title in a row, an accomplishment that is just HUGE. But Alonso put in a spectacular season, and to me it's a close tie, neither deserves to lose.

[mnmracer]

What happened this season is crystal clear, before the updates to the red bull and before they solved their exhaust area downforces issues, he was involved in another life and death battle with Webber just like in 2010.

Is that all you can do? Tell lies?
Where was this life and death battle in Australia, Malaysia, Bahrain, Spain, Canada, Europe, Germany or Hungary?

You don't want to hear that Vettel's season has not been as bad as you want it to be made out.
You have to resort to factual inaccuracies to make your point. You need a double standard to make Alonso look good.
Because no, we can't judge Lewis for losing three races to Jenson. We can't judge Fernando for being bettered in three races by Felipe. But the fact Mark got the better of Sebastian in three races is apparently reason to burn him to the ground.

Vettel has not been that good this year tbh.

Last year he was "flawless", a "genius" as Martin Brundle would say..

This year, he's had questionable collision/race incident galore compared to the other big names and Webber kept up with him quite well compared to last year (until he signed his contract).

In almost every aspect, you could say that there has been a driver who has done better than him.

Qualifying? Maybe in 2011 with the beastly RB7, but definitely not 2012, starting outside of the top ten in Monaco while Mark was on pole.

Race craft? Certainly not. He still shows issues overtaking. Doing so out of the track boundaries on numerous occasions, causing racing incidents on more than one occasion. Sometimes multiple times in the same race.

Winning when starting away from the front row? Nope.

He did what he needed to do with the equipment he was given, but where his overall racemanship (no it isn't a word) is concerned, its not really been fantastic. There are definitely other drivers who have been more impressive with their set of wheels.

Raikkonnen for instance, has been much more impressive imo, with the limiting factor being the overall just above average, but not good enough Lotus car.

Again more big talk, again NO substantiation.
No scenario in which you can say: see what Hamilton/Alonso did there? this is something Vettel could not have done.
All talk, no substance.
Why do you even bother with such empty phrases if you know they add absolutely nothing?